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USA chaos

Pope John XXIII said:
I'm not sure it will work. To pardon himself he surely needs to be charged with something?

It's all without precedent but surely he can't pardon himself for potential charges
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My understanding is that he actually can do that, certainly for the time in office.. Or so I heard some news journalist discuss
 
da fuq said:
100 % this

That is not a pop at you ORF as I think you seem to be a decent fella

Especially after finding out that you have adopted children in the past
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Bremen Tree said:
Not really a dog, just not prepared to let unfounded statements go unchallenged. It would be good to keep these things in mind when claiming these things would not happen in a civilised society.

Statements like that are prehistoric and only tries to put the western world on a civil/moral pedestal versus the rest of the planet. When in fact our house is far from in order.
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Only prehistoric if you presume that civilised is only aimed at the west. Id say with that assumption aside its certainly to be considered uncivilised
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I'm not sure it will work. To pardon himself he surely needs to be charged with something?

It's all without precedent but surely he can't pardon himself for potential charges
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There is no precedent, which effectively means there is no definitive answer; if he attempted to do so it would probably end up before the Supreme Court.

The Vice President could issue him a pardon, even for potential crimes, but it is extremely doubtful if Pence would want his time in office defined by something so hideous.

The pardons are only applicable to Federal Crimes so it would not protect him against the Criminal case that New York are putting together against him.

However, there are numerous reasons why an incoming Attorney General would prevent any prosecution talking place, the main one being he would deploy Constitutional defences which would seriously damage the Constitution.

There is also a perception, on both sides of the House, that the prosecution of a former President would undermine an already weakened institution, and create serious divisions with the Electorate, particularly when judging the impartiality of the Justice system.

There are numerous reasons why a Supreme Court should rule against allowing Trump to Pardon himself; that is no guarantee they would do so.
 
mao tse tung said:
There is no precedent, which effectively means there is no definitive answer; if he attempted to do so it would probably end up before the Supreme Court.

The Vice President could issue him a pardon, even for potential crimes, but it is extremely doubtful if Pence would want his time in office defined by something so hideous.

The pardons are only applicable to Federal Crimes so it would not protect him against the Criminal case that New York are putting together against him.

However, there are numerous reasons why an incoming Attorney General would prevent any prosecution talking place, the main one being he would deploy Constitutional defences which would seriously damage the Constitution.

There is also a perception, on both sides of the House, that the prosecution of a former President would undermine an already weakened institution, and create serious divisions with the Electorate, particularly when judging the impartiality of the Justice system.

There are numerous reasons why a Supreme Court should rule against allowing Trump to Pardon himself; that is no guarantee they would do so.
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Yes. Looking more likely that anything against him will be at the state level. That's still pretty bad news for him though.

Might he have to peacefully transfer power to Pence, expecting a pardon? Maybe he could hope that the charges against him would happen in the short time between Pence being sworn in and Biden being sworn in.

This is genuinely more fked up than House of Cards. I thought that about a few issues while watching HoC in Trump's early days and this is now off the scale. I don't think Trump has actually murdered anyone himself though.
 
I'm sure I read today that if he is pardoned, he is barred from public office, as it is effectively admission of criminal acts?

I personally think the chances of a self pardon being accepted by the supreme court are very low. I also think the chance of conviction for the events of the other night are significantly lower.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I'm sure I read today that if he is pardoned, he is barred from public office, as it is effectively admission of criminal acts?

I personally think the chances of a self pardon being accepted by the supreme court are very low. I also think the chance of conviction for the events of the other night are significantly lower.
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Think thats right but the usa definition of domestic terrorism looks to have him bang to rights.
 
radfordinlondon said:
Think thats right but the usa definition of domestic terrorism looks to have him bang to rights.
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No prison is safe from his supporters

Especially with a sympathetic racist law enforcement. Unless you send him to Guantanamo or Rikers island, it's simply not safe and a prison term for Trump isn't happening.

Let Pence pardon him so he is barred from office.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I'm sure I read today that if he is pardoned, he is barred from public office, as it is effectively admission of criminal acts?

I personally think the chances of a self pardon being accepted by the supreme court are very low. I also think the chance of conviction for the events of the other night are significantly lower.
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I read it the other way round.

A Pardon completely removes a conviction which opens the way up for him to stand again.

I have a feeling that there will be a stitch up, involving both Parties, which will take a prosecution off of the table on the condition that he does not stand for Office again.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
No prison is safe from his supporters

Especially with a sympathetic racist law enforcement. Unless you send him to Guantanamo or Rikers island, it's simply not safe and a prison term for Trump isn't happening.

Let Pence pardon him so he is barred from office.
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He would look lovely in one of those orange jump suits; it would go with his complexion, that's for sure
 
mao tse tung said:
I read it the other way round.

A Pardon completely removes a conviction which opens the way up for him to stand again.

I have a feeling that there will be a stitch up, involving both Parties, which will take a prosecution off of the table on the condition that he does not stand for Office again.
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That has to be Impeachment then.

There is literally no deal possible that anyone could trust Trump to stick to. The only way of ensuring he doesn't run again is to legally disbar him from doin so; whether that is by pardon or impeachment.
 
I read an interesting article that suggested prosecution was a terrible idea irrespective of his actual guilt, written by an opponent of his.

His argument was that America is so incredibly divided that all it would achieve would be a further hardening of the fault lines and lead to something even worse in the long term.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
I read an interesting article that suggested prosecution was a terrible idea irrespective of his actual guilt, written by an opponent of his.

His argument was that America is so incredibly divided that all it would achieve would be a further hardening of the fault lines and lead to something even worse in the long term.
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I'm not sure I would worry about that so much; his hardcore are too far gone.

But the roots of the decent into madness for the GOP probably started with Watergate, and Republican bitterness at Democrats pursuing impeachment there. That is worth remembering.

Imagine this hypotrthical; Obama comes after Trump, and Trump is impeached as suggested. Do the republicans, in four years, try to find absolutely any excuse whatsoever to kangeroo court an Impeachment through for Obama? Of course they would. And they might not even just do it for a black guy either.

A "revenge impeachment" is a real possibility.

The prospect of both parties expecting to try to remove their rivals from office could become a reality.

But, the GOP is decending into chaos. We have to consider whether the message that they can get away with this is healthy either.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
I read an interesting article that suggested prosecution was a terrible idea irrespective of his actual guilt, written by an opponent of his.

His argument was that America is so incredibly divided that all it would achieve would be a further hardening of the fault lines and lead to something even worse in the long term.
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It was James Comey I think.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
I read an interesting article that suggested prosecution was a terrible idea irrespective of his actual guilt, written by an opponent of his.

His argument was that America is so incredibly divided that all it would achieve would be a further hardening of the fault lines and lead to something even worse in the long term.
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Thats inevitable now. Dangerous moment, important that trump is held accountable. Without accountability, democracy will be weakened even further.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I'm not sure I would worry about that so much; his hardcore are too far gone.

But the roots of the decent into madness for the GOP probably started with Watergate, and Republican bitterness at Democrats pursuing impeachment there. That is worth remembering.

Imagine this hypotrthical; Obama comes after Trump, and Trump is impeached as suggested. Do the republicans, in four years, try to find absolutely any excuse whatsoever to kangeroo court an Impeachment through for Obama? Of course they would. And they might not even just do it for a black guy either.

A "revenge impeachment" is a real possibility.

The prospect of both parties expecting to try to remove their rivals from office could become a reality.

But, the GOP is decending into chaos. We have to consider whether the message that they can get away with this is healthy either.
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Think the question there is how far can the repubs keep trump away from the party. Trump clearly has a hardcore rump of support but haemorrhaged votes badly in the election just gone, losing Republican states as well aas not gaining many Democrat states. Think trump is like the brexiteers and represents perhaps 25% of the actual population. Without potus to spread the word, brand trump is now fully toxic imo
 
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