So, whadda we gonna moan abart? | Page 153 | Vital Football

So, whadda we gonna moan abart?

What is it with people wanting to dictate what other posters chew the fat over? First WalgarthJohn, now you KDZ.

What's the problem if things go round in circles?

As far as other "offenders" go, (though I can't confess to knowing all the details) they've all been under different circumstances. However, that's not the main point.

Disregarding the fact that he's an unelected bureaucrat, he's been a key driver behind the "Stay at Home" message and was seen by many to be Johnson's right hand man. Accordingly, he has to be seen to be whiter than white ......an exemplar of behaviour if you will. If he's not, then the message just gets diluted. (Note - this iss the opinion of SPI-B, advising SAGE, not me).

As for it being a Brexit issue........ aye, OK .... Times, Telegraph, Mail, Baker, Bone, Morgan, Hartley-Brewer etc....... its an excuse.

AS for the media, there are good parts and bad parts. Excellent journalists, and shitehawks. The irony is that the pres barons are the ones who employ, encourage and enable many of those shitehawks. .........for their own purposes.

The media wouldn't be doing what they're doing if "the government" didn't act like they do. How on earth does Cummings have the power to get Sajid Javid's aide sacked?

As for America, I'm far more concerned about our government - and especially our leader - ending up like their leader than I am about our media acting like theirs. ........presumably, you'd be OK though with Fox News, who are basically there as part of Trump's comms network.

EDIT - Just seen Northern's post. Ferguson, (less so Calderwood with it being Scotland) ....... now, the government's reaction in that instance compared to now ..... that's where the hypocrisy lies.
 
. Even less chance of the usual suspects on here taking any notice either KDZ

Quite right Jock ........................ but look at it this way .......... with no football, if we weren't moaning about politics, what would you have had to moan about these last couple of months?
;)
 
It's the lack of consistently for sure which has riled people up further. I do wonder if this had emerged prior to the Ferguson debacle, would he still be in a job.

The Government pushed for Ferguson to resign and set a benchmark for any further cases for advisors, Calderwood also went in Scotland. Had both of them stayed then, disciplined and remaining in the job for Cummings would have also been fair.

Both Labour and Conservative parties have had several MPs known to have flouted the rules and in fairness but parties have dealt with that the same and consistently, whether you believe both parties should have forced them to resign is a different matter.

If i remember correctly Sturgeon refused to sack Calderwood but shortly after she resigned. I suspect she got a bit of the doorstepping from our media and thought 'the job's not worth it'.

Ferguson also resigned rather than sacked, but i don't know if he was pressured or not.

But in both cases they hadn't got a leg to stand on in terms of breaking the lock down - Cummings arguably has. If Cummings didn't have a kid and was photographed on the beach drinking beers with a friend then i don't think there would be a debate he'd be gone. The grey area is the reason / excuse whichever way people choose to take it.

Also throw Leo Varadka former Irish PM on the list of lockdown breakers. I suspect that nearly every MP in the country has broken them - just most manager to avoid being caught.
 
Exactly who in the media is trying to get rid of Cummings? The Mirror. Yes. The Guardian. Yes. But who else? He is the darling of Murdoch's outlets and he is the big cheese in the media world.

Off the top of my head all of the different papers and tv stations hounding his house, taking pictures of his car, number plate, home, harassing him when he was with his 4 year old. Sky tv reporters going to his parents house today to try and doorstep them, the aggressive, accusitory questions framed the way they where were at the press confrence were those of partizan journalists morally grandstanding rather trying to get the facts - there were good questions that could've been asked but they were too busy trying to attack him that they didn't do their job - just pretty much demand him to resign or appologise and make strawmans about what he did. The amount of media that reported unsubstansiated claims about Cummings trip to Duram after he got back to London and the way they framed their headlines as if it was an established fact rather than simply an alegation.

Sky News has been horrific for presenting opinions as facts, Rigby and Boulton don't even try to pretend they are impartial anymore. Sky also aren't owned by Murdoch anymore in case anyone says it. Emily Mattis from BBC Newsnight was congratulating the Mirror editor for what appears to be a fake story, Kate McCann from Sky news tweeting out incorrect details about lock down rules that make Cummings look worse, Peston is always awful and Kunsberg has been awful too.

I do not like many politicians at all - in fact i dont think i like any really - but if i was a journalist i wouldn't dream of asking questions or throwing out my opinion as so many journalists do.
 
What is the point of arguing this any further - we all know the details of what happened people have made up their own mind and they won't change them. It just goes round in circles.

Simple logic if the people were shouting for the 3 or 4 Labour politicians and now Blackford to go when they happened then fair enough if they wanted Cummings gone fair play it's consistent and a position of principle. But I don't remember any fuss over any of that at all it was seem more as an embarrassment than a sackable offence which I agree with at the time I thought it was egg on the face but not sackable - like every other person who's been breaking the rules. If they didn't call for them to go then but want Cummings out now it's pure political bias.

We know judging from the contrasting behaviour of the media in these instances this is about removing Cummings more than it is what he actually did. They know removing him weakens Brexit, weakens the government and is revenge for all those who he previously beat in campaigns. There is a reasonable debate to be had and fair questions but the media is full on Salem Witch trials mode. They've blown this into insane levels - China and Hong Kong stuff isn't even getting a mention it's wall to wall attacks.

I think whatever side of the argument you are on we should all be very concerned about the accelerating behaviour of our press - they are actively campaigning for things and trying to whip up hate storms rather than reporting the news fairly. They've been pushing their luck for years and they just keep getting worse - how long before we have another Caroline Flack? Remember the crocadile tears over that before they get their next target and go for the kill - fuck their safety, privacy, children and family - they need their scalp. Our media are cancer and laws preventing them from behaving so unscrupulously are long over due. The media has treated Cummings worse than the convicted paedo groom gangs - no matter what side of the political divide your on or if Cummings should go or stay this shit storm has to stop and the media need reeling way back to reporting the news accurately rather than trying to force elected Governments hand. They hide behind the 'holding the government to account line' like is gives them a blank cheque to do anything to anyone they see fit. This won't stop here it will just get worse our media is now as bad as Americas.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Couldn’t have put it better myself. It’s an absolute disgrace. They act like victim, investigator, judge, juror and executioner all rolled into one. Facts or evidence is irrelevant to them. They are like a pack of hungry rabid dogs. The press coverage this alleged indiscretion had generated is grossly disproportionate to what has actually occurred.

Hours after stating he never mentioned Durham, for fear of his parents being harassed - they were on his parents doorstep harassing them. I mean you couldn’t make that up. Not once have they asked how his child is after he was hospitalised. As you rightly identify, the lessons of hounding a mentally ill woman to her death has not been heeded. It is little wonder the press in this country are held in such contempt.
 
I'm sure you wasn't so critical of the press in the run up to last years election. If you think this is a press witch hunt I'd love to hear your description of that.
 
What is the point of arguing this any further - we all know the details of what happened people have made up their own mind and they won't change them. It just goes round in circles.

Simple logic if the people were shouting for the 3 or 4 Labour politicians and now Blackford to go when they happened then fair enough if they wanted Cummings gone fair play it's consistent and a position of principle. But I don't remember any fuss over any of that at all it was seem more as an embarrassment than a sackable

I was shouting for Kinnock to be sacked at the time - ask Moonay 😉 - his boss (Kinnock's not Moonay's) did nothing.
I also shouted for Cummings to be potted.

No bias at all - hypocrites of whatever political hue should be dismissed they do not deserve to serve us
 
Police broke up a party at Rob Roberts MPs house on the weekend for his wifes 40th Birthday. Spokesperson claimed he wasn't in. Aye cos most people wouldn't attend a big Birthday for their other half at their own home.

What is wrong with these people?
 
Quite right Jock ........................ but look at it this way .......... with no football, if we weren't moaning about politics, what would you have had to moan about these last couple of months?
;)

Must admit Moonay, at my age I like a good moan n as u say no footy to moan about be it team selection/ dead man walking( a post title btw for those thinking otherwise)/ relegation etc etc....but this moaning on DC & the governments handling of the virus etc etc is on another level. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy of some of our MP's / press n media. For what its worth imo the DC scenario stinks - if they'd held their hands up / apologised the hounds would have circled faster, if they sack him they circle for another 'victim' or as they're doing now in standing by him the circle n circus just becomes bigger. All the while as a few other posters have mentioned noteworthy news is being missed or barely mentioned i.e. announcement that shops opening soon with no or little discussion / possible breakthrough in a medicine previously used for Ebola which could help in the fight against this virus - just two, probably lots more being missed as Kunsberg, Peston, Burley etc etc are far too busy circling looking for the scoop of a resignation or sacking...
 
After all this orchestrated bullshit and hatred of the Tories they will stabilise and open up an even wider lead over the opposition...when you spend your time on social media with other like minded ball bags you lose perspective of what the greater population thinks...all agreeing on Twitter means jack shit in the real world.

If DC goes or doesn't go won't make a scrap of difference in 5 years time when the Tories romp home again. Folk have short memories.
 
What is it with people wanting to dictate what other posters chew the fat over? First WalgarthJohn, now you KDZ.

What's the problem if things go round in circles?

As far as other "offenders" go, (though I can't confess to knowing all the details) they've all been under different circumstances. However, that's not the main point.

Disregarding the fact that he's an unelected bureaucrat, he's been a key driver behind the "Stay at Home" message and was seen by many to be Johnson's right hand man. Accordingly, he has to be seen to be whiter than white ......an exemplar of behaviour if you will. If he's not, then the message just gets diluted. (Note - this iss the opinion of SPI-B, advising SAGE, not me).

As for it being a Brexit issue........ aye, OK .... Times, Telegraph, Mail, Baker, Bone, Morgan, Hartley-Brewer etc....... its an excuse.

AS for the media, there are good parts and bad parts. Excellent journalists, and shitehawks. The irony is that the pres barons are the ones who employ, encourage and enable many of those shitehawks. .........for their own purposes.

The media wouldn't be doing what they're doing if "the government" didn't act like they do. How on earth does Cummings have the power to get Sajid Javid's aide sacked?

As for America, I'm far more concerned about our government - and especially our leader - ending up like their leader than I am about our media acting like theirs. ........presumably, you'd be OK though with Fox News, who are basically there as part of Trump's comms network.

EDIT - Just seen Northern's post. Ferguson, (less so Calderwood with it being Scotland) ....... now, the government's reaction in that instance compared to now ..... that's where the hypocrisy lies.

Elected or unelected doesn't really matter in this instance - we keep hearing 'one rule for one and another rule for the rest' and i agree - if are sacking everyone who broke lockdown my whole street is in trouble - we've had kitchen fitters, gardeners, builders, visitors, etc. Considering the amount of people on the beaches for weeks, the amount of journalists outside Cummings house i imagine the unemployment rate would go through the roof even more. But as far as i am aware the punishment for breaking lockdown is £60 and there hasn't been many fines handed out overall. But let's say we only look at politicans, the police said that Ali attending a funeral with 100 gathers and Kinnock visting his dad on his Birthday broke the rules but Cummings didn't due to the childcare and exceptional circumstances caveat - so if we want to talk about different circumstances if Cummings is guilty of lockdown breach and then they all go but Starmer didn't make those calls while he calls for Boris to make them. It's pure politics and hypocrisy to not treat them all in the same way - let's not pretend it isn't. Like i said i don't think any of them should've gone. I know folks want to get rid of Cummings as they don't like him - but we need consistency and we've not had that. The fact you know every detail about this one but the media barely mentioned the other 3 or 4 labour cases show that this is not a level playing field in terms of impartiality.

Sturgeon publically refused to sack Calderwood and tried to just say she wont attend some meetings or something minor like that the Scottish govenment even tried to deflect the situation intially saying 'she was just checking on her second home' before it turns out she was photographic proof of staying there twice emerged than the initial story and after caught dead to rights she resigned a day so later. The police said this was a clear breach if i remember correctly.

Ferguson resigned - although i cannot say if he was put under pressure or not to do so but he works for SAGE which is mean to be a indepednent QUANGO so i don't know if the Government had the power to force him out beyond asking. There could be some hypocrisy there if there are other details i'm not familiar with of them forcing him out but again his was a clear breach with no leg to stand on while Cummings wheather people agree or not does have a decent argument he didn't break the rules due to exceptional circumstances with childcare.

You misunderstand the Brexit reference - it's not to say every person who thinks Cummings should go is a Remainer - but a large portion of our media, civil service, political class (even within his own party), etc hate him for the part he played in that vote and the part he continues to play in stopping the transition extension - he has a lot of enemies. As for the Mail was taken over by a new editor ages ago who is very anti Brexit and hates Cummings so this isn't a great suprise from them. Times has always been against Brexit so makes sense for them to hate him, Piers Morgan has been on the war path for anything government since Boris wouldn't give an interview so again to be expected, Bone and Baker hate Cummings due to him and the ERG having issues since the referendum campaign so obviously they want him out of the way to get some influence back. The Telegraph as far as i've seen, along with the Sun and Express have been supported as you'd expect along the tribal lines. Hartley Brewer is a fair one as she hasn't got an axe to grind, there are a few others too who have broken party lines - but the majority of high profile names coming out for Cummings blood where people who hated him and wanted him gone before this. Cummings is a vital player in Brexit being delivered, no transition extension, civil service reform, Boris' past success - removing him is a massive bonus while removing Kinnock or Ali or the rest doesn't serve any political purpose so it's pretty clear there is motivation here beyond what he actually did.

The media were making out the rules weren't clear enough and no one could understand the simple slogan a few weeks ago - the slogans were never the rule book which has all of the details but now they are claiming the slogan was the only rule and it was clear. The goal posts move to suit the argument. They were all saying that Cummings said old people should die, that he was against lockdown, that he was pushing heard imunity, that he made a 2nd trip back to Durham and all of those stories failed to be validated or have been proven iffy but were reported as virtual fact rather than accusations. They've been throwing everything at him for months. They'll be after Frost our negotiator for Brexit in the next few weeks for sure.

I take it you don't watch much American News as CNN and MSNBC are even worse for left bias than Fox are for right bias these days, and Fox is very bias. None of that is what news should be - journalists should be impartially informing people of the facts to make up their minds and not activists trying to shape the narrative.

If you think the press has behaverd impartially or reasonably i dont think you've seen the coverage i've seen. I think there is a fair debate and questions to be asked in a reasonable fashion and if some folks say Cummings should go that's fair enough but this is like piranahs in a feeding frenzy for blood. If Cummings is so bviously guilty then they can just present the undeniable facts and let them damn him but they are going for the kill - that's not their job. They deliberetly ignored all the other cases that don't fit their agenda to oust Cummings when they are pretty much at least as bad. They are meant to report the news not try and manufacture it via whipping up mobs to make a position untenable.

The guy may or may not have broke lockdown in peoples opinion, of course they should cover it and talk about it and ask the tough questions but this reaction has been off the charts.

I have an 18 month old little girl, when the guidlines came out back on the middle of March me and my wife literally went on the government website there was a document with all of the rules explained. We saw that if you have a young child you can travel for childcare needs in exceptional circumstances so we were well aware of this rule that the press seem to be ignorant of months ago. The images of all the Italian and Spanish hospitals falling apart were fresh in the memory, no one knew for certain at that point how bad it would get, the incubation periods, etc. We don't have any neighbours or close friends we could leave our daughter with - the only option were my parents (who are below the high risk bracket) who fortunately live close by - so we didn't have to make any decision but if they lived at the other end of the country and there was an option to self isolate near them I would've done exactly what Cummings did and drove to them to ensure that if me and my wife became ill our little girl would be with family rather than risk her going into temporary care. Even if the guidlines didn't say so - i'd have done the same for her sake. So i sympathise with Cummings driving up given the circumstances and guidlines, if it was Shamus Milne for a Corbyn government i'd say the same - i don't like Milne at all, i think he's dreadful and while i'd love to have seen him go i'd not say it was fair in the same situation. The guidlines and situation i think make it jusfifiable. If someone else thinks a least that bit is wrong then we'll agree to disagree.
 
I'm on about your hatred...it's an illness.

You mentioned "orchestrated bullshit". How the hell do I orchestrate anything?

Anyway, why place beliefs onto others. I've said many times, I really really don't like Johnson, but I've voted Tory in the past, and some ex Tory ministers are some of the best I've known.

This lot can't hold a candle to them mind.......and their leader is a fraud.
 
I was shouting for Kinnock to be sacked at the time - ask Moonay 😉 - his boss (Kinnock's not Moonay's) did nothing.
I also shouted for Cummings to be potted.

No bias at all - hypocrites of whatever political hue should be dismissed they do not deserve to serve us

Fair play Hampton - no issue with that at all. Just those who think one is ok but not the other.
 
After all this orchestrated bullshit and hatred of the Tories they will stabilise and open up an even wider lead over the opposition...when you spend your time on social media with other like minded ball bags you lose perspective of what the greater population thinks...all agreeing on Twitter means jack shit in the real world.

If DC goes or doesn't go won't make a scrap of difference in 5 years time when the Tories romp home again. Folk have short memories.

While i agree Cummings staying or going wont make a much of a difference come next election, I do expect Labour to win the next one. If Corbyn wasn't riddled with so many flaws i think Labour would've already won power back before now - as any government in power for a prolonged period of time rack up mistakes over time that eventually make the centre of the public who decide elections on the swing vote to give the other side a go. The Conservatives will have been in power for something like 16 years so a swing the oposite way is on the horizon.

The last 2 elections the left didn't unite behind Corbyn due to the huge baggage, plus there was a Brexit faltline that all the other partys totally played into to their detriment. But this time the media do like Starmer, there wont be the same divisions in the party, the campaigning will be different, he doesn't scare the normal voter off and the ensuring economic crisis will be crippling to the country and it's going to be easy to critasise as the opposition as many of the incoming problems will be unavoidable and ripe for political point scoring.

I think whoever is in government during a massive recession will have an uphill battle to stay in as whoever is in opposition will be promised a better alternative and if the public are suffering they will think 'what have we got to lose' - assuming Starmers alternative isn't bat shit crazy on paper he'll attract a lot of voters almost by default due to the circumstances alone.