Salutory Lesson | Vital Football

Salutory Lesson

R

redimpsfan100

Vital Reserves Team
Is there a serious lesson in the last two away matches?

Four games without conceding then drop your MOTM?

Concede four avoidable goals and then wonder why the "wheels are wobbling"?

I'm not sure any managers should have his "favourites". Surely you select what is best on the day but recent form must be paramount.

What do I know..... except Bolger has been superb?
 
I don't believe it is about favourites.

Liverpool forward line is Firmino, Salah, Mane- end of story.

If one of those is injured or suspended, Origi will step in BUT no matter how well Origi plays, the front three will always be the front three and normal service will resume after the injury or suspension

Hence DC clearly believes his best CB pairing is Shackell/Bostwick and, after last season, who would say otherwise.

Basic management in practice.

That Bossie looks a shade slower this season (or the opposition front line a shade faster) seems to be a pattern so far and with Shacks pushing 126 years old, pace is catching us out at the back.

It may well change and we bring Bolger back but DC is only doing what I would expect any manager to do really.

However a point I've raised elsewhere

First 5 league games last season- scored 11, conceded 4
First 5 league games this season- scored 10, conceded 4.

Not a great deal of difference!
 
I agree with both the posts above. Bolger was desperately unlucky to be dropped at MK after having 3 excellent games, including MOM at Rotherham. However Shackell and Bostwick themselves are virtually undroppable based on last season and I have often said I cannot entertain a Lincoln City XI on the field without Bossie in it somewhere.

However one observation is that it has been Bossie who has been caught out for the first goal in both the last 2 games. He was outmuscled / outmanoevered by Bowery who then played the wide man in for the cross which was turned in for first goal at MK and was similarly outmuscled / outmanoevered by Ennis yesterday who then produced that brilliant finish.

This doesn't mean he was "at fault" for those goals just that he was beaten in similar fashion both times. Also interesting yesterday that Ennis spent as much of his afternoon up against and on Bostwick's side (as opposed to Shackell), suggesting there was some sort of plan there.
 
RedImp73 said:
I agree with both the posts above. Bolger was desperately unlucky to be dropped at MK after having 3 excellent games, including MOM at Rotherham. However Shackell and Bostwick themselves are virtually undroppable based on last season and I have often said I cannot entertain a Lincoln City XI on the field without Bossie in it somewhere.

However one observation is that it has been Bossie who has been caught out for the first goal in both the last 2 games. He was outmuscled / outmanoevered by Bowery who then played the wide man in for the cross which was turned in for first goal at MK and was similarly outmuscled / outmanoevered by Ennis yesterday who then produced that brilliant finish.

This doesn't mean he was "at fault" for those goals just that he was beaten in similar fashion both times. Also interesting yesterday that Ennis spent as much of his afternoon up against and on Bostwick's side (as opposed to Shackell), suggesting there was some sort of plan there.
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We forget opposition managers have plans too- it may well be DRFC were at MK on Tuesday and saw Bossie and thought they could make something of it.

Finer margins in L1, one instance of quality and it is a goal. Much less so in L2- you don't get punished as quickly or easily or as often for small errors.
 
Most supporters look at what they think went wrong.

They then decide if the players that featured in what went wrong had not played,
everything else would have gone right.

The only problem with this selection policy is you would eventually start with a team numbering nil.

If you don’t play, you never make mistakes. Bolger certainly never made any yesterday.

In reality what a manager has to do is pick the the side before the game based on the evidence of all the previous games over the players careers and decide who is most likely to perform best against the opposition you face.
 
StrangelyBrown said:
We forget opposition managers have plans too- it may well be DRFC were at MK on Tuesday and saw Bossie and thought they could make something of it.

Finer margins in L1, one instance of quality and it is a goal. Much less so in L2- you don't get punished as quickly or easily or as often for small errors.
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Ennis was a handful. This would not have changed whoever we had at centre half. It wasn’t easy for Bostwick yesterday but it would n’t have been easy for Bolger either.
 
Chimpimp said:
Most supporters look at what they think went wrong.

They then decide if the players that featured in what went wrong had not played,
everything else would have gone right.

The only problem with this selection policy is you would eventually start with a team numbering nil.

If you don’t play, you never make mistakes. Bolger certainly never made any yesterday.

In reality what a manager has to do is pick the the side before the game based on the evidence of all the previous games over the players careers and decide who is most likely to perform best against the opposition you face.
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Don't think that is right- there will be a "best" 11 in DC's head which doesnt really change. It is up to that team to implement the game plan for whichever opposition we play. There may be some tinkering around the edges (ie Southend at home with Bozzie in CM).
 
StrangelyBrown said:
We forget opposition managers have plans too- it may well be DRFC were at MK on Tuesday and saw Bossie and thought they could make something of it.

Finer margins in L1, one instance of quality and it is a goal. Much less so in L2- you don't get punished as quickly or easily or as often for small errors.
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They also looked to get at us down our left, so Toff was also seen as weaker than Eardley. He was certainly partly culpable for the winner and didn't have his best day when asked to defend.
 
StrangelyBrown said:
Don't think that is right- there will be a "best" 11 in DC's head which doesnt really change. It is up to that team to implement the game plan for whichever opposition we play. There may be some tinkering around the edges (ie Southend at home with Bozzie in CM).
Click to expand...
Think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

Your best players are your best players.

That does not really change because of what happened in the previous match. Your best players before last weeks game are likely to be your best players this week.

Your average supporter however sees a shortcoming in the last game and somehow hopes picking an inferior player in your next game will improve things.

Which is obviously illogical.
 
Bossie has been close to MOM the last 2 games anyway. He is fighting against better attackers/midfielders. Can;t compare to last season and then gauge if he has lost something he had a year ago.

Added to that I would suggest that we are playing against teams that have more players that can win a game they are losing in the stats...........like we did at Rotherham.

and finally I would suggest that the last 2 teams have clearly planned to go wide and take on our full backs.

We had enough possession and chances to win handsomely at MK Dons. We didn't take those chances. We had less chances at Donny but still we could have beaten
them easily.

In this league teams break and counter faster, are more clinical and have better defenders. We will do well to get in the play offs and if we do we should celebrate.
 
I do agree that Bolger was very unlucky to be benched after sterling performances this season but to suggest that this is the reason for the last two losses is far too simplistic. We had enough chances in both games to make goals conceded a moot topic and in all honesty bar Doncaster's winner on Saturday were there any real errors as such. MK's first was an incisive attacking move by them and their winner was a bit of a fluke. Ennis's goal on Saturday was a fine piece of attacking skill and power so I think we are looking way too much into this
 
There was no tactical decision involved, there was a straight swap of one player for another.

I think most players would say that if you play well you should expect to retain your place, and not only had Bolger played well he'd done so unfit against Accrington and we hadn't conceded a goal in three games.

Though I understand the point above, comparisons between Mane and Origi aren't relevant in this case.

The same thing happened last season when Smith was undeservedly dropped to bring back Vickers.

In conclusion, football management is difficult.
 
StrangelyBrown said:
I don't believe it is about favourites.

Liverpool forward line is Firmino, Salah, Mane- end of story.

If one of those is injured or suspended, Origi will step in BUT no matter how well Origi plays, the front three will always be the front three and normal service will resume after the injury or suspension

Hence DC clearly believes his best CB pairing is Shackell/Bostwick and, after last season, who would say otherwise.

Basic management in practice.

That Bossie looks a shade slower this season (or the opposition front line a shade faster) seems to be a pattern so far and with Shacks pushing 126 years old, pace is catching us out at the back.

It may well change and we bring Bolger back but DC is only doing what I would expect any manager to do really.

However a point I've raised elsewhere

First 5 league games last season- scored 11, conceded 4
First 5 league games this season- scored 10, conceded 4.

Not a great deal of difference!
Click to expand...

Hi SB
What you didn't mention after those 5 games last season we had 13pts
This season wwe have 9pts
 
Bostwick and Shackell were our CBs for the majority of last season and we had the second best defensive record in League Two. Maybe that will change this season in a more difficult division, but two away games against tough opposition is not a fair sample size on which to make that call.
 
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Chimpimp said:
Think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

Your best players are your best players.

That does not really change because of what happened in the previous match. Your best players before last weeks game are likely to be your best players this week.

Your average supporter however sees a shortcoming in the last game and somehow hopes picking an inferior player in your next game will improve things.

Which is obviously illogical.
Click to expand...
I understand your point about ‘your best players being your best players’ but, I don’t agree with your conclusion, it makes no allowance for form. Bolger played very well in those first three matches and was the in-form defender. The team hadn’t conceded a goal and I contend that Shakell as a seasoned professional wouldn’t have expected to have been brought straight back into the team. A better way of handling the situation would have been for him to have been on the subs bench and brought back into the fold gradually. What we have now is likely to be a disgruntled player and sends a message to all those not considered to be the ‘best players’ that no matter how well they play they’ll be out once the ‘best player’ is available. Form must be the pre requisite consideration when selecting the team, otherwise what’s the point!
 
Snats said:
Bostwick and Shackell were our CBs for the majority of last season and we had the second best defensive record in League Two. Maybe that will change this season in a more difficult division, but two away games against tough opposition is not a fair sample size on which to make that call.
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Especially when one of the goals was as a result of your winger losing the ball just outside the box!
 
WorcesterImp said:
I understand your point about ‘your best players being your best players’ but, I don’t agree with your conclusion, it makes no allowance for form. Bolger played very well in those first three matches and was the in-form defender. The team hadn’t conceded a goal and I contend that Shakell as a seasoned professional wouldn’t have expected to have been brought straight back into the team. A better way of handling the situation would have been for him to have been on the subs bench and brought back into the fold gradually. What we have now is likely to be a disgruntled player and sends a message to all those not considered to be the ‘best players’ that no matter how well they play they’ll be out once the ‘best player’ is available. Form must be the pre requisite consideration when selecting the team, otherwise what’s the point!
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The problem with your approach is that you spend half the season worrying what your second best players feel. The harsh reality is there will only be two parties happy with your approach. The second best player for a position and the opposition who are playing a weaker team than they should.
There are obviously dips in form and players who improve over time and that's when you reassess who your best players are.
Bolger has played very well in his appearances this season. But for me Shackell is still definitely better than Bolger and Bostwick marginally so. My approach would be to tell Bolger the truth. He has done all that could be expected of him but Shackell and Bostwick have performed well for over a season and are first picks at the moment.

If he can show in training he is better than them he will be in the team. Likewise his recent performances mean if either Shackell's or Bostwick's standards drop even marginally, he has demonstrated that he should then come back into the team.
 
Chimpimp said:
The problem with your approach is that you spend half the season worrying what your second best players feel. The harsh reality is there will only be two parties happy with your approach. The second best player for a position and the opposition who are playing a weaker team than they should.
There are obviously dips in form and players who improve over time and that's when you reassess who your best players are.
Bolger has played very well in his appearances this season. But for me Shackell is still definitely better than Bolger and Bostwick marginally so. My approach would be to tell Bolger the truth. He has done all that could be expected of him but Shackell and Bostwick have performed well for over a season and are first picks at the moment.

If he can show in training he is better than them he will be in the team. Likewise his recent performances mean if either Shackell's or Bostwick's standards drop even marginally, he has demonstrated that he should then come back into the team.
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I don’t actually think we’re a million miles apart on this matter as you acknowledge in your second paragraph that there will be dips in players form and as such it will be necessary to bring in replacements who may achieve as you call it ‘best player’ status. This is my point, just because someone was a ‘best player’ last season, albeit in a lower division, this should not be regarded as the prime criteria for team selection this! I would argue that Bolger has proved through his performances in the first 3 matches that he is the in-form centre back, Bostwick hasn’t managed a full pre-season because of injury problems and seems to be half a yard off the pace but, because of Shakell’s disciplinary indiscretions at the end of the season has had to play and Shakell, as I said before, would not have expected to come straight back in the team.
 
WorcesterImp said:
I understand your point about ‘your best players being your best players’ but, I don’t agree with your conclusion, it makes no allowance for form. Bolger played very well in those first three matches and was the in-form defender. The team hadn’t conceded a goal and I contend that Shakell as a seasoned professional wouldn’t have expected to have been brought straight back into the team. A better way of handling the situation would have been for him to have been on the subs bench and brought back into the fold gradually. What we have now is likely to be a disgruntled player and sends a message to all those not considered to be the ‘best players’ that no matter how well they play they’ll be out once the ‘best player’ is available. Form must be the pre requisite consideration when selecting the team, otherwise what’s the point!
Click to expand...

Subs are impact players more often than not these days - centre backs don't really fit into that.
 
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