Forest

[walgarthjohn]

Grigg slight knock and Powell was knackered,you know he very rarely manages 90 minutes!!

Keep Powell on and it was game over simple Plus any one apart from Vaughan cant hold a ball up to save his life

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Keep Powell on and it was game over simple Plus any one apart from Vaughan cant hold a ball up to save his life

Powell had stopped winning high balls and stopped pressing - he was knackered, he had already stopped offering what we was earlier in the game unforunately and wasn't going to offer much if he stayed on - his fitness just isn't there at the moment to boss the game like he did in the first half for the full 90.

Vaughan gives you 100% and is a true battler but he's certainly not big or strong enough to be the target man we need, i think the second Garner is ready will see Vaughan not even in the match day squads.

 

[walgarthjohn]

Powell had stopped winning high balls and stopped pressing - he was knackered, he had already stopped offering what we was earlier in the game unforunately and wasn't going to offer much if he stayed on - his fitness just isn't there at the moment to boss the game like he did in the first half for the full 90.

Vaughan gives you 100% and is a true battler but he's certainly not big or strong enough to be the target man we need, i think the second Garner is ready will see Vaughan not even in the match day squads.

Might have but one pass from him and its game over Simple taking him off cost us big

 

[Made in Wigan]

I can’t comment on whether he was any good at other points in the game, but there’s no way he changed his mind on the penalty to Forest. None whatsoever- there’s not a ref I’ve ever seen at any level do that let alone an EFL one. He didn’t handle it well & I know how it looks but I’m just trying to give an insight as to why it looked like it did rather than a partisan, he cheated us view point.

Similarly if I can look at it & my initial reaction is that Grigg might not have got to the ball then there’s every chance the ref thought that too. Doesn’t make us right, just that it’s a feasible view to take.
It has to be a denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity and if there’s any doubt as to whether Grigg would have got the ball (& there is coz at least 2 people think so ?) then a ref can only give a caution. Like I said he may be wrong, but imo there’s enough distance for Grigg to travel & enough dip required on the cross to say for certain that Grigg would have got there. Hence for me it’s not an obvious goal scoring opportunity- had the ball been at Grigg’s feet when he was hauled back then it would have been a red

Mighty, I acknowledge your view on the second penalty. However given what had preceded it there is every chance he was influenced- plus the linesman never signaled for a penalty with the flag across his chest which convinces me even more. For what it's worth I thought it was live (not so sure on replay), but that isn't the issue, it's the process in which he awarded it.

Re the first both live and on replay I am convinced he would have reached the ball and had an effort on goal, dead centre eight yards out. Any question he may have tried to get the ball then the defender gets the benefit of the doubt. The fact he didn't as he pulls back the player removes that doubt. The fact he prevaricated for so long before reaching a decision on the card colour showed so much indecision. I respect your point of view but it was unquestionably a red card and he got the decision wrong.

 

[Kendal Blue]

I can't recall our player doing that other than against City and especially not over complete con jobs last season. If someone can recall an instance when we made such a scene for an obvious non penalty then we shouldn't have - it's way over the line.

I recall a debate on here regarding Morsy and Cook constantly being in the face of the ref/4th official last season. Some called it passion, others said it was too far. That's why there's debate. I do think it was a penalty yesterday, but I would never be so dismissive as to say I don't see how anyone could disagree. It's about balance. You can't argue everything on one side, not everything Wigan is rosy and we don't sit atop the moral plinth. However, I've been wrong about things many a time.
My biggest concern (and probably Cook's), is with the part of the game that we can control, and leaving a trailing leg in the box when the ball has long gone past you is an error. It's not worth dropping a very good player and captain over, but it's an individual mistake that has cost us 3 points in the last minutes of the past 2 games. It's fine details and minor tweaks, but we're getting there

 

[exiled tic]

Might have but one pass from him and its game over Simple taking him off cost us big

So basically carry a player just in case he can make a pass? Really clever tactic that one John! Voluntarily playing with ten men,!

 

[Kenny Morris]

There’s no difference at all Kenny it’s players surrounding the ref to try & influence their decision
In the City game it was our lot in order to get him to send a player off whilst yesterday it was Forest players trying to get him to given them an injury time penalty to salvage a point in a game they should have lost.

Also, people expecting Ben Watson not to appeal to the ref coz he played for us, scored the winning goal in a cup final & got a warm reception is ridiculous.
He plays for Forest. They’re his team mates now. They pay his wages now & no doubt they got a points bonus with that last minute equaliser - of course he’s going to appeal

There certainly was a difference in that it was a wild tackle that could have done serious injury to one of their team mates.
Watson didn't just appeal to the ref, that would be OK, but the fact that he was the leader of such a vociferous bullying of the referee is what was not acceptable. Yes the referee should not have allowed himself to be influenced, but as others have said he showed from the first minute that he was a weak referee.

 

[C_Latic]

There certainly was a difference in that it was a wild tackle that could have done serious injury to one of their team mates.
Watson didn't just appeal to the ref, that would be OK, but the fact that he was the leader of such a vociferous bullying of the referee is what was not acceptable. Yes the referee should not have allowed himself to be influenced, but as others have said he showed from the first minute that he was a weak referee.

As much as I admire your shameless bias towards Latics Kenny, I’m afraid you’re off the mark. It’s an entirely accurate comparison. It’s irrelevant that the two incidents are different. Both involved a referee making a decision before being surrounded by players of the team on the receiving end of said decision forcing the weak referee to change his mind.

I’ve got no problem with player shithousery. We were one of the worst for it last season and the best teams are good at that part of the game. You don’t win promotions and trophies with a team full of angels. If you want to blame someone, don’t blame Watson and co, blame the referee. Forest should have been down to 10 in the first half.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I recall a debate on here regarding Morsy and Cook constantly being in the face of the ref/4th official last season. Some called it passion, others said it was too far. That's why there's debate. I do think it was a penalty yesterday, but I would never be so dismissive as to say I don't see how anyone could disagree. It's about balance. You can't argue everything on one side, not everything Wigan is rosy and we don't sit atop the moral plinth. However, I've been wrong about things many a time.
My biggest concern (and probably Cook's), is with the part of the game that we can control, and leaving a trailing leg in the box when the ball has long gone past you is an error. It's not worth dropping a very good player and captain over, but it's an individual mistake that has cost us 3 points in the last minutes of the past 2 games. It's fine details and minor tweaks, but we're getting there

Not seeing that as a penalty has nothing to do with any bias, if that identical incident goes for or against us or if it's 2 teams playing non league, the Prem or kids in the park - its not a penalty. I genuinely dont know how anyone could think that it is, the lad started to over run the ball and it's there to be won both players get their foot to the same spot miliseconds apart but Morsy gets there first to toe it away, Morsy doesnt barge him and the lad flings himself in the air. To give a penalty you have to be sure especially in the dying seconds of a game when it will change the result and that is as soft a penalty you'll ever see. lf thats a penalty you'd be giving a pen virtually every time a tackle is made in the box and moving to a complete non contact sport. Morsy even went over to the linesman and had a word then went running to the ref pointing towards him as if the lino said it wasn't a pen and Morsy wanted the ref to consult him. I've seen us get away with actual penalties that shouldve been and i would admit when we got away with it but that was daylight robbery.

As for Cook and Morsy last season it's one on one with the ref not 8 or so players piling in at once. It's one thing for the manager and the captain to complain to a ref it's another for the whole team to pile in with amateur dramatics that wouldn't look out of place on stage. We are no perfect beacons of moral purity but no one claimed we ever were but those 8 players rushing the ref screaming blue murder as if Morsy had just snapped the lads leg or something was so redicolously over the top it was embarassing.

 

[Kendal Blue]

In that case king we'll have to leave it there as a disagreement on both fronts. I see intimidation of an official as an offence, regardless of numbers involved and I don't see it as an offence with a sliding scale. I also watched the clip back again and can't see how anyone can claim to see Morsy get a touch. The club have also offered no objection to the penalty. Although I'm happy to clean my glasses and watch again. I guess that goes alongside your not seeing my point of view

 

[Mighty Bongsmon]

Mighty, I acknowledge your view on the second penalty. However given what had preceded it there is every chance he was influenced- plus the linesman never signaled for a penalty with the flag across his chest which convinces me even more. For what it's worth I thought it was live (not so sure on replay), but that isn't the issue, it's the process in which he awarded it.

Re the first both live and on replay I am convinced he would have reached the ball and had an effort on goal, dead centre eight yards out. Any question he may have tried to get the ball then the defender gets the benefit of the doubt. The fact he didn't as he pulls back the player removes that doubt. The fact he prevaricated for so long before reaching a decision on the card colour showed so much indecision. I respect your point of view but it was unquestionably a red card and he got the decision wrong.

Assts no longer signal for a penalty by putting the flag across their chest and haven’t for about 3 or 4 season’s now - England was the only country that ever did that & FIFA and UEFA made the FA change it. So I wouldn’t use the fact you didn’t see him do that as any indication that the asst didn’t have an input.
At the level I ran the line, you’re now asked to wave the flag & move down to the corner flag - but that’s only if the ref asks you to come in on the decision. At the EFL as they’re mic’d up, they do it all verbally & there’s no need for them to come in with any flag indications.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on the first one. I know as a ref if I’d been getting assessed and shown a red for that challenge when the ball was where it was & the challenge was where it was, then I’d have been asked to explain it & then been docked marks.
How I’ve explained it is how refs are asked to interpret the laws & things like that aren’t always known to supporters

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Must admit KDZ I'm with Kendal on this one, Morsy didn't touch the ball but left his leg there for the guy to buy the penalty. Players will always look for the penalty and will trip over every time if you leave your leg there. No doubt Morsy knows that and is regretting giving Cash the opportunity. I do however agree that players surrounding the ref is unacceptable and regardless of what the excuse is it should not happen, the only way this is going to stop is if a ref ever has the bottle to book them all.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

No worries Kendel and TrueBlue happy to agree to disagree. Just such a shame that incident has inevitably overshadowed what was otherwise an outstanding performance.

Garner can't get fit soon enough as when Powell tires we stop winning high balls and we end up with under so much pressure with the ball coming back at us. Vaughan is a warrior when he comes on and fights and runs for everything but as much as you love his effort it's already been said he isn't able to hold the ball up. I feel if Garner was fit we may have hung on in the last 2 games as a fresh set of legs that can hold the ball down field would've allowed us to keep playing our game rather than slowly dropping back.

 

[walgarthjohn]

So basically carry a player just in case he can make a pass? Really clever tactic that one John! Voluntarily playing with ten men,!

Correct loads saying the same Didnt look un fit to me they were shit scared of him and we took him off Brought that useless donkey on who couldnt hold a ball up And for some reason we started playing hoof ball up to that point we had played some of the best football in years

 

[Lazysid]

You are right, he does have loyalty to Forest now, but after the reception our fans gave him at various times during the game it was disrespectful of him to lead the referee harassment like he did.
He has definately gone down in my estimation, I always liked him even when he was being citicised by some, but I for one will not be clapping him again when we next play Forest or whichever team he plays for. Shame on you BW

I wouldn't go as far as saying he was a disgrace but I certainly won't be giving him any adulation next time he plays against us.
Maybe after the final whistle but not during the game.

 

[jeffs right]

Powell had stopped winning high balls and stopped pressing - he was knackered, he had already stopped offering what we was earlier in the game unforunately and wasn't going to offer much if he stayed on - his fitness just isn't there at the moment to boss the game like he did in the first half for the full 90.

Vaughan gives you 100% and is a true battler but he's certainly not big or strong enough to be the target man we need, i think the second Garner is ready will see Vaughan not even in the match day squads.

Vaughan isn't a Championship standard player and certainly not a lonely striker.

 

[exiled tic]

Interesting to hear Ian Holloway on tv saying never a penalty and in fact the Forest player threw himself to the ground!

 

[Mighty Bongsmon]

It wasn’t a natural fall & he left his leg there knowing Morsy was coming in.
But Morsy still caught him imo & it was a penalty

 

[rumjocky]

Sometimes I love football but most of the time I despise it. It's cruel and full of hatred. The long tentacles of this hatred seek me out and ultimately find me no matter where I am and ruin countless Saturday nights. There is no hiding place.

There is always next game and it's Tuesday up the tics ?

 

[rumjocky]

Thought Ben Watson's behaviour was a disgrace, you accept there is absolutely no loyalty in football and i expected no favours but he was leading the harassment of the referee trying to deliberately con him at every turn his histrionics were embarrassing. He wasnt the only one trying to bully the ref but he was by far the most forceful and you know he didn't used to be like that. You know every team appeals for everything including ourselves but Forest were so cynically over the top it was Oscar worthy play acting - but it worked so maybe we need to stop respecting referee and get every outfield player surround the ref, get in his face and hysterically scream at him until we eventually get our way.

Cook respecting referees in his post match interview is very noble and classy in principle but this joke of a ref has robbed us twice in the last two game he has officiated us and to let him get away without a word being said again about such a poor / weak / biased whatever anyone wants to call his performance is something i disagree with. Cook doesnt have to go all Ben Watson and make a scene but i think he had every right to make a point about just how awful we had be treated by such a terrible ref.

I don't like to throw all the blame on a ref for a negative result as often we will be more than culpable in our own downfall and you accept its a hard job and sometimes you will make genuine mustakes. But yesterday was like having 2 different sets of rules for each team. That's the most angry I've been at a ref in a very long time.

We did it against city in fa cup it's part of the game now roll on Tuesday ?