Coronavirus | Page 159 | Vital Football

Coronavirus

HoofGrantBrown said:
Or it could be these are actually covid deaths and the official figures have been deliberately reduced...
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I'm not sure about that. Unless I've misunderstood the process I believe they look at the average for previous years, then deduct the Covid linked deaths. That leaves a figure that can be compared with actual deaths, to come up with the excess total.

The figures are well established, available to public scrutiny from independent experts and the calculation is very simple and straight forward.

In theory at least it should be very easy to spot any manipulation of the figures and you would like to think there would be any number of the experts kicking up a stink if it were so.

In any case, however you look at it, it's bad/sad news either way, and nobody gains politically whether it's deaths as a direct result of Covid or indirectly via untreated disease due to the pandemic.
 
hulloutpost said:
I'm not sure about that. Unless I've misunderstood the process I believe they look at the average for previous years, then deduct the Covid linked deaths. That leaves a figure that can be compared with actual deaths, to come up with the excess total.

The figures are well established, available to public scrutiny from independent experts and the calculation is very simple and straight forward.

In theory at least it should be very easy to spot any manipulation of the figures and you would like to think there would be any number of the experts kicking up a stink if it were so.

In any case, however you look at it, it's bad/sad news either way, and nobody gains politically whether it's deaths as a direct result of Covid or indirectly via untreated disease due to the pandemic.
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All you need to know about excess deaths is here
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...tydisplacementinenglandandwales/2020tomid2021
 
NottyImp said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

"All severely ill with Covid. All unvaccinated and previously healthy. All completely avoidable."
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Strange that this anecdote article is considered reliable.. Yet if he was providing anecdote for the other side it would be dismissed.

I’ve had my vaccines now and wouldn’t discourage anyone from having it.. but have had experiences that did make me cautious and if I wrote them in an article with no facts or figures would immediately be dismissed.
 
EastvilleIMP said:
Strange that this anecdote article is considered reliable.. Yet if he was providing anecdote for the other side it would be dismissed.

I’ve had my vaccines now and wouldn’t discourage anyone from having it.. but have had experiences that did make me cautious and if I wrote them in an article with no facts or figures would immediately be dismissed.
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Well, he's a respiratory consultant working in an ICU. I'm far more likely to trust his "anecdotes" than yours or any other non-professional like your mate down the pub who has "been on the internet".
 
NottyImp said:
Well, he's a respiratory consultant working in an ICU. I'm far more likely to trust his "anecdotes" than yours or any other non-professional like your mate down the pub who has "been on the internet".
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I don’t see his registration or name on the article?

My anecdotes have come from myself at work, granted I’m not a doctor but I still see and treat patients.

This isn’t a vaccine or no vaccine post, just merely questioning the bias when articles back up a point.
 
EastvilleIMP said:
I don’t see his registration or name on the article?

My anecdotes have come from myself at work, granted I’m not a doctor but I still see and treat patients.

This isn’t a vaccine or no vaccine post, just merely questioning the bias when articles back up a point.
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It's specifically badged as an anonymous article. Presumably for good reason. One assumes that the Guardian has done their due diligence on the source and would have not have published it otherwise.

He's actually presenting clear data by saying that the vast majority of ICU patients in his hospital are now non-vaccinated.

Have you actually read it?
 
NottyImp said:
It's specifically badged as an anonymous article. Presumably for good reason. One assumes that the Guardian has done their due diligence on the source and would have not have published it otherwise.

He's actually presenting clear data by saying that the vast majority of ICU patients in his hospital are now non-vaccinated.

Have you actually read it?
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Yes I’ve read it. Could you pick out the part where he gives facts and figures backing up the majority of ICU patients are un-vaxxed, maybe I’ve missed it?

Struggle to see why they would need to be anonymous.
 
EastvilleIMP said:
Yes I’ve read it. Could you pick out the part where he gives facts and figures backing up the majority of ICU patients are un-vaxxed, maybe I’ve missed it?

Struggle to see why they would need to be anonymous.
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I didn't say he gave figures. Here's the first line of the article:

"In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated."

Later:

"But the story is different on our intensive care unit. Here, the patient population consists of a few vulnerable people with severe underlying health problems and a majority of fit, healthy, younger people unvaccinated by choice."

If you want to quibble over that with that, fine. It's good enough for me. I regard those as facts, even if not specifically quantified.
 
NottyImp said:
I didn't say he gave figures. Here's the first line of the article:

"In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated."

Later:

"But the story is different on our intensive care unit. Here, the patient population consists of a few vulnerable people with severe underlying health problems and a majority of fit, healthy, younger people unvaccinated by choice."

If you want to quibble over that with that, fine. It's good enough for me. I regard those as facts, even if not specifically quantified.
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I’m not quibbling, but I wouldn’t class it as proof.. if the article wasn’t on the side of your argument it would be immediately dismissed.

Just an observation.

Again can’t see why it’s been made anonymous, they are siding with the majority.
 
EastvilleIMP said:
I’m not quibbling, but I wouldn’t class it as proof.. if the article wasn’t on the side of your argument it would be immediately dismissed.

Just an observation.

Again can’t see why it’s been made anonymous, they are siding with the majority.
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Maybe they're worried about their career, or being harassed by anti-vaxxers? I've no idea, tbh, but I think in today's climate I would err on the side of caution given the number of nutters around prepared to issue threats and use violence against medics.

As to "proof", it's one ICU as stated. But I imagine there are stats out there that give a fuller picture. Google is your friend and maybe he's actually wrong...
 
EastvilleIMP said:
I’m not quibbling, but I wouldn’t class it as proof.. if the article wasn’t on the side of your argument it would be immediately dismissed.

Just an observation.

Again can’t see why it’s been made anonymous, they are siding with the majority.
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You could ask Dr David Hepburn?
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/leading-intensive-care-doctor-says-22176948

"A leading intensive care doctor says the majority of Covid patients he is treating a "steady stream" of coronavirus patients, with the majority being unvaccinated."
 
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