General politics thread: | Page 74 | Vital Football

General politics thread:

Status
Not open for further replies.
in_the_top_one said:
If you read my post, how on earth did you miss that the vast majority of it was criticism of Cummings?
Click to expand...

did I say you didn’t criticise Cummings too? I said you were siding with his version. I happen to believe there’s no smoke without fire. But Cummings came across like a man with a vendetta and a man with a dislike of the civil service and politicians? Do I dislike Hancock? Sure. Do I think boris is opportunistic and vague? Sure. Do I think many governments have got this 1 in a 100 years event spot on? No. It’s a worldwide problem.

I think there are multiple parties to blame for high death tolls including people who broke the lockdown rules and contributed to spread, Demonstrators of various causes, the government and the scientists.
 
toms said:
did I say you didn’t criticise Cummings too? I said you were siding with his version. I happen to believe there’s no smoke without fire. But Cummings came across like a man with a vendetta and a man with a dislike of the civil service and politicians? Do I dislike Hancock? Sure. Do I think boris is opportunistic and vague? Sure. Do I think many governments have got this 1 in a 100 years event spot on? No. It’s a worldwide problem.

I think there are multiple parties to blame for high death tolls including people who broke the lockdown rules and contributed to spread, Demonstrators of various causes, the government and the scientists.
Click to expand...
But, until they were saved by the vaccines, the UK and US governments were the biggest failures in the world based on death rates, don't you think? The more extreme right the government, the worse the response it seems. Brazil are another good example.
 
Pearced said:
But, until they were saved by the vaccines, the UK and US governments were the biggest failures in the world based on death rates, don't you think? The more extreme right the government, the worse the response it seems. Brazil are another good example.
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s a question of political persuasion here. Spain is governed by communists and they’ve done very badly too. Perhaps China too but we don’t have real figures. France and Germany haven’t exactly been screaming successes. I do think certain leaders have been too relaxed for my liking but on the other hand there are matters like the economy and people’s mental health to consider. The vaccines have been a success and so has the furlough scheme. But there have been other failures. This is not an easy situation to deal with and the notion that a government has all the answers is for the birds.
 
DO you think that our leaders were more relaxed than you would have liked?
Do you think they have balanced loss of life with "the economy and people's mental health"?
 
toms said:
I don’t think it’s a question of political persuasion here. Spain is governed by communists and they’ve done very badly too. Perhaps China too but we don’t have real figures. France and Germany haven’t exactly been screaming successes. I do think certain leaders have been too relaxed for my liking but on the other hand there are matters like the economy and people’s mental health to consider. The vaccines have been a success and so has the furlough scheme. But there have been other failures. This is not an easy situation to deal with and the notion that a government has all the answers is for the birds.
Click to expand...
It's a question of what pressures they bow to. If you're a right wing government you're likely beholden to big business and the billionaires (Murdoch being a case in point). In this case you try to avoid lochdown, control of borders, school closure etc to keep the economy moving at the expense of community health. China is essentially a dictatorship so fit falls on the right wing side. Is Spain run by communists? I have read that the current government is centre-left and Spain is a 5-party democracy. Communist if you're a US Republican I guess but then so are most countries....
 
in_the_top_one said:
DO you think that our leaders were more relaxed than you would have liked?
Do you think they have balanced loss of life with "the economy and people's mental health"?
Click to expand...

when you refer to our do you mean Your EU leaders or just this country’s leaders ? I never know with you. Certainly your leaders have been a disaster.

With respect to your questions. Yes and i can’t answer the question. I’ve lost an uncle to covid. Caught it in a hospital going for chemo doctors think. I only said governments have to consider the economy and mental health. I didn’t say they had to do a totting up exercise of acceptable deaths on one side and unemployment figures on the other.
 
Pearced said:
It's a question of what pressures they bow to. If you're a right wing government you're likely beholden to big business and the billionaires (Murdoch being a case in point). In this case you try to avoid lochdown, control of borders, school closure etc to keep the economy moving at the expense of community health. China is essentially a dictatorship so fit falls on the right wing side. Is Spain run by communists? I have read that the current government is centre-left and Spain is a 5-party democracy. Communist if you're a US Republican I guess but then so are most countries....
Click to expand...

I really do think you need to read up on Spanish politics. They are pretty left wing. On China, there no better example of left wing state control. Right wing is a major stretch in my opinion.
 
toms said:
when you refer to our do you mean Your EU leaders or just this country’s leaders ? I never know with you. Certainly your leaders have been a disaster.

With respect to your questions. Yes and i can’t answer the question. I’ve lost an uncle to covid. Caught it in a hospital going for chemo doctors think. I only said governments have to consider the economy and mental health. I didn’t say they had to do a totting up exercise of acceptable deaths on one side and unemployment figures on the other.
Click to expand...
Sorry for your loss.
 
toms said:
when you refer to our do you mean Your EU leaders or just this country’s leaders ? I never know with you. Certainly your leaders have been a disaster.

With respect to your questions. Yes and i can’t answer the question. I’ve lost an uncle to covid. Caught it in a hospital going for chemo doctors think. I only said governments have to consider the economy and mental health. I didn’t say they had to do a totting up exercise of acceptable deaths on one side and unemployment figures on the other.
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm talking about our leaders here in the UK.
(If you want to bring EU nations into it as some sort of comparison then you will need to explain by what measures 'they' have been a 'disaster' relative to ours?)


It was you who said our leaders needed to consider the economy and mental health and you were doing so in a way that implied they were trying to balance policy. Ok, against what were they balancing the economy and mental health? We have economy and mental health on one side of the scales, what was on the other?
 
in_the_top_one said:
Yes, I'm talking about our leaders here in the UK.
(If you want to bring EU nations into it as some sort of comparison then you will need to explain by what measures 'they' have been a 'disaster' relative to ours?)


It was you who said our leaders needed to consider the economy and mental health and you were doing so in a way that implied they were trying to balance policy. Ok, against what were they balancing the economy and mental health? We have economy and mental health on one side of the scales, what was on the other?
Click to expand...

I haven’t implied any balancing exercise, however if you are having to take a decision about how to and how long to lock up a country you have to consider factors like the economy and people’s mental health. The alternative is staying locked up forever in case people spread say the flu. 10-20 k or so die from the flu per annum . We never had the debate on that issue which means there seems to be tacit public acceptance that around 10-20 k dieing of flu is an “acceptable” loss for a free society. The higher that figure goes the more shocking and “unacceptable” it is. No loss of life is good
 
Last edited:
Surprised we're still stuck on this issue.
"The alternative is staying locked up forever"

We've been locked up a lot longer than was necessary because of the inaction. Also more people have died and the economy is more wrecked.
 
BTW, I hope and expect that we will see fewer deaths from flu in the future thanks to a covid legacy of better hygiene and behaviour, and a greater willingness to vaccinate against it. Many of those deaths you mention are entirely preventable, you just need to pop to a GP/centre/workplace/chemist/etc.


You can add a large chunk the 10-20k you might have expected to die of flu to the covid excess deaths total since nobody died of flu (alone) this year.
 
Many on here claim to be left wing and support workers rights yet heavily supported remain in EU. Would be interested in views as to why the Swiss have said no to joining EU. Most of their trade is with EU and they are surrounded by EU countries. Support for EU has fallen from 50% to less than 30%. Reasons for not joining have been many fold but sovereignty has been high on list. One of the loudest voices has been the Unions because joining the EU would erode workers rights and start a race to the bottom. They have repeatedly refused to join thru the ballot box. Can’t really throw the uneducated and racist label at them as they read German, French and Italian press and have a history of neutrality. Could it be people are beginning to see thru the EU.
 
Polly 433 said:
are you arguing that China isn’t communist.
Click to expand...
You ask this as if the truth is obvious.
Actually there's alot of academic debate about whether there is anything communist at all about the CCP.
Before Xi Jinping took over they had all but abandoned communism as an ideology, but its working its way back in to their methods.
So the answer imo is 'kind of, a little bit'.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.