The Official Dean Smith Thread

[Gordonsleftboot]

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, aware that I’ve somewhat flip flopped throughout the season in my opinion regarding Smith etc.

This is where I’m now at... (still flip flopping!).

IF we stay up (a capitalised IF because it’s Vila and you still never know!) then I’m imagining two scenarios (the first might be wishful thinking).

First scenario (the ‘acting like a big club move’):

We somehow convince Poch and his team that Villa are the club for him. Smith is let go but his legacy is safe having guided us up and kept us up.

I, like all, desperately want us to become a club that can keep our best players (especially when they are home grown!)

Imagine us staying up, but Grealish has an offer from a champs league team that he simply can’t refuse.

But then, the Villa tell him that Poch is coming and he wants to build a team around you.... then would he stay? I think quite possibly.

Would Poch come in the first place? Who knows.

Second Scenario:

We realise we are not ‘there’ just yet in our quest to become a big club that thinks like a big club.

We recognise Smiths achievements and keep faith in him and the aim is a top half finish next season, and then we reassess whether we need someone else to take us forwards. There is an inquest into recruitment strategy, and possibly heads will roll (ie. Jesus but not Smith).

With this in mind, I’ve been taking a look at Man City’s Wickipedia page, needing to jog my memory, and these are the key facts I found:

Taken over in 2008.
Recent history of mid table finishes.
Retained Hughes as Manager.
Flurry of bids for high profile players.
Bought Robinho.
Team finished 10th.

2009 summer: over £100m on players (a lot more dosh than it is even now only 11 years later)
December: sacked Hughes.
Brought in big name in world football, Mancini.
Finished 5th, rest is history.

I’m not saying we look to replicate that, or even that we should model ourselves on that - prefer the Liverpool approach/spurs under Poch (minus their dippy chairman). It was also a different time (ffp), different owners (ours are rich, but not that level of rich!) But the key I think here is that City didn’t take long to start ‘thinking big’ and acting big (and ultimately, are still not a bigger club than Villa! Ha)

I think the big thing for me is all of the rhetoric in the summer was about ‘not making up the numbers’, in it to win it etc etc but it hasn’t been backed up on the pitch.

A combo of being a bit unrealistic, and not getting the buys quite right? Perhaps. If the owners think avoiding a relegation battle, at the very least, was achievable, then Smith’s head probably should be on the chopping block. For those fans that pre season believed finishing 17th (if that turns out to be the case) would be a good achievement, then they would argue against that. I can understand the reasons for that perspective, given the state of our squad when we got promoted. But that wasn’t the line that the club chose to peddle.

But if they talk the talk they need to walk the walk - to my mind though, it’s only worth getting rid of Smith if we can get a top name in woth

If you’re a top player (or up and coming one), who do you want to go and play for? Dean Smith, or Mauricio Pochettino? (Or insert other big name with good record here)

It all hinges on whether we can even get someone like that in, at this stage. And there’s also the problem that a manager like Poch wants to spend money... (sacked by Spurs because Levy wouldn’t spend, basically) how much can we spend? How much are our hands tied at this stage by FFP? (Over to you Mike, I don’t understand this stuff!!)

also if the next season starts in September, it ain’t long for a new manager to get his ideas over. Which is the bigger risk?!

Anyway that’s my garbled attempt at explaining my constantly changing thought process and I’m well aware of my own hipocrisy. I guess that’s what football is all about!

I’m tempting fate I might add, as we could still go down!

I’ve also just had two large coffees and I tend to go off on one.

I have to agree with a lot of this. The question, as you rightly say, is if Smith is discarded, it must only be because we have the chance to bring in a higher profile coach who will attract the players we want/ need. If this happens it will be harsh on a coach who has never been dismissed. (Can some of the top coaches claim that distinction?) What I would hate to see is Smith cast off and a new coach recruited from the merry-go-round on the expectation of a 3 year mission and then offski. To digress slightly, if Levi at Spurs sacked Poch for not wishing to back him in the market, why bring in Mourinho who has a poor record of developing his own talent? Was there something else that we don't know?

Another thought here too...there has been a lot of criticism of Suso. Follwoing the last few games which players aren't you happy with, given the amount of cash we had to spend? Luis? Konsa? Reina? Hause? Targett and Guilbert, albeit for only half a game, are stepping up too. Samatta is giving all and he can't score without supply...no striker scores with every chance.... and Nakamba could come good yet. Surely we aren't expecting too much to soon are we? One thing is clear, the PL is a big step up from the Championship as Leeds and Co will soon discover.

I'm glad I never worked for a few who contribute on here. Today I'll do the possible, the impossible will have to wait for tomorrow.

 

[wittonite]

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, aware that I’ve somewhat flip flopped throughout the season in my opinion regarding Smith etc.

This is where I’m now at... (still flip flopping!).

IF we stay up (a capitalised IF because it’s Vila and you still never know!) then I’m imagining two scenarios (the first might be wishful thinking).

First scenario (the ‘acting like a big club move’):

We somehow convince Poch and his team that Villa are the club for him. Smith is let go but his legacy is safe having guided us up and kept us up.

I, like all, desperately want us to become a club that can keep our best players (especially when they are home grown!)

Imagine us staying up, but Grealish has an offer from a champs league team that he simply can’t refuse.

But then, the Villa tell him that Poch is coming and he wants to build a team around you.... then would he stay? I think quite possibly.

Would Poch come in the first place? Who knows.

Second Scenario:

We realise we are not ‘there’ just yet in our quest to become a big club that thinks like a big club.

We recognise Smiths achievements and keep faith in him and the aim is a top half finish next season, and then we reassess whether we need someone else to take us forwards. There is an inquest into recruitment strategy, and possibly heads will roll (ie. Jesus but not Smith).

With this in mind, I’ve been taking a look at Man City’s Wickipedia page, needing to jog my memory, and these are the key facts I found:

Taken over in 2008.
Recent history of mid table finishes.
Retained Hughes as Manager.
Flurry of bids for high profile players.
Bought Robinho.
Team finished 10th.

2009 summer: over £100m on players (a lot more dosh than it is even now only 11 years later)
December: sacked Hughes.
Brought in big name in world football, Mancini.
Finished 5th, rest is history.

I’m not saying we look to replicate that, or even that we should model ourselves on that - prefer the Liverpool approach/spurs under Poch (minus their dippy chairman). It was also a different time (ffp), different owners (ours are rich, but not that level of rich!) But the key I think here is that City didn’t take long to start ‘thinking big’ and acting big (and ultimately, are still not a bigger club than Villa! Ha)

I think the big thing for me is all of the rhetoric in the summer was about ‘not making up the numbers’, in it to win it etc etc but it hasn’t been backed up on the pitch.

A combo of being a bit unrealistic, and not getting the buys quite right? Perhaps. If the owners think avoiding a relegation battle, at the very least, was achievable, then Smith’s head probably should be on the chopping block. For those fans that pre season believed finishing 17th (if that turns out to be the case) would be a good achievement, then they would argue against that. I can understand the reasons for that perspective, given the state of our squad when we got promoted. But that wasn’t the line that the club chose to peddle.

But if they talk the talk they need to walk the walk - to my mind though, it’s only worth getting rid of Smith if we can get a top name in woth

If you’re a top player (or up and coming one), who do you want to go and play for? Dean Smith, or Mauricio Pochettino? (Or insert other big name with good record here)

It all hinges on whether we can even get someone like that in, at this stage. And there’s also the problem that a manager like Poch wants to spend money... (sacked by Spurs because Levy wouldn’t spend, basically) how much can we spend? How much are our hands tied at this stage by FFP? (Over to you Mike, I don’t understand this stuff!!)

also if the next season starts in September, it ain’t long for a new manager to get his ideas over. Which is the bigger risk?!

Anyway that’s my garbled attempt at explaining my constantly changing thought process and I’m well aware of my own hipocrisy. I guess that’s what football is all about!

I’m tempting fate I might add, as we could still go down!

I’ve also just had two large coffees and I tend to go off on one.

I was one of those fans that predicted a 17th place finish, and that was based as you say on a poor squad and an untried manager.
I didnt want Smith when we appointed him, thinking we could do better, but if I remember correctly there wasnt that much around at the time.
I have remained fairly constantly in the keep him camp but appreciate why others want him gone.
I am still not convinced despite last nights massive win that we wont bugger it all up on Sunday so holding back on any thoughts re what happens if we stay up.
As ever with our Villa there are always more questions than answers.

 

[sirdennis]

It was fantastic to win last night although I must admit that this was against the worst Arsenal side that I've ever seen us play against. Even Palace and Everton were rubbish and there wasn't any difference in the way all those teams played against us vs how we had been playing before the restart.

However, we still had to beat them and we performed much better than them and deserved 3 wins on the trot. If the team continues to play football like they have been since Trez's morale-boosting first goal vs Palace, I support Dean Smith fully whether in the prem or the championship.

Maybe we made these teams look poor. It can happen. Our wins aren't just down to other teams solely being poor.

 

[Claret & Blue Blood]

Get the win on Sunday and then plan for next season.

The first stop has to be Stamford Bridge and convince Tammy to come home as he is not likely to figure in the starting line up at Chelsea that often with Pulisic and Werner and possibly Giroud ahead of him.

I am still in the "keep Dean Smith irrespective of what happens on Sunday camp" as I can't see the point of changing. Poch and other similar big names won't come to Villa and who else is available - Eddie Howe perhaps or Pearson is out of work now!!

 

[Wicked Messenger]

You can see one or two players looking more comfortable and developing an understanding of what is called for in the PL, speed of thought and action amongst other things. Two of these players stand out post lockdown, Luiz and Konza. With McGinn back suddenly the heart of the side is picking itself something we didn’t achieve earlier in the season. If other players develop in this way then that is a massive boost for next season wherever we end up.
I don’t buy the argument the opposition were rubbish, it’s an argument to support a specific bias.
As for the Poch argument, I’ll leave that to the owners. I’ll just say that the top few clubs have the most expensive and best players in the world regardless of manager, it’s about deep pockets. We may have to get there more slowly and in doing so try to retain the soul of the club. Come what may I’d stick with Dean not because he’s a Villa fan but because I believe he is better placed now to lead us than any new starter.

 

[Wurzel]

Can I just ask what evidence is there that a manager like Poch would come to a club that has been terrible for more than a decade, spent several years in the second tier of football, and is in a relegation fight to stay in the top flight? What evidence?

 

[Dumble]

Can I just ask what evidence is there that a manager like Poch would come to a club that has been terrible for more than a decade, spent several years in the second tier of football, and is in a relegation fight to stay in the top flight? What evidence?

There is no evidence, just conjecture.
For me personally the point being that it would only take a manager of that calibre for us to consider outing Smith. And attracting one one like that may not be the point that we are at.

 

[ldgavfc]

I have to agree with a lot of this. The question, as you rightly say, is if Smith is discarded, it must only be because we have the chance to bring in a higher profile coach who will attract the players we want/ need. If this happens it will be harsh on a coach who has never been dismissed. (Can some of the top coaches claim that distinction?) What I would hate to see is Smith cast off and a new coach recruited from the merry-go-round on the expectation of a 3 year mission and then offski. To digress slightly, if Levi at Spurs sacked Poch for not wishing to back him in the market, why bring in Mourinho who has a poor record of developing his own talent? Was there something else that we don't know?

Another thought here too...there has been a lot of criticism of Suso. Follwoing the last few games which players aren't you happy with, given the amount of cash we had to spend? Luis? Konsa? Reina? Hause? Targett and Guilbert, albeit for only half a game, are stepping up too. Samatta is giving all and he can't score without supply...no striker scores with every chance.... and Nakamba could come good yet. Surely we aren't expecting too much to soon are we? One thing is clear, the PL is a big step up from the Championship as Leeds and Co will soon discover.

I'm glad I never worked for a few who contribute on here. Today I'll do the possible, the impossible will have to wait for tomorrow.

Fair point on Suso. I'm still not happy with any of the strikers he lined up to replace Abraham, it made the season an uphill battle from the start. I much prefer the signings Brighton made in the summer, the likes of Webster and Maupay, although I am impressed with Douglas and Konsa.

I'm on the fence with Suso, we made a lot of headlines over the amount we spent in the summer and I dont think we have that much to show for it. Other than Heaton, Mings, Douglas and Konsa, I'm not overly thrilled about seeing any of the other signings lining up for us next season yet.

 

[ldgavfc]

Can I just ask what evidence is there that a manager like Poch would come to a club that has been terrible for more than a decade, spent several years in the second tier of football, and is in a relegation fight to stay in the top flight? What evidence?

I'd also like to ask what evidence we have that Pottechino would do any better than Dean Smith? Dean came close to winning a league cup for us this season, Pottechino had a squad of world class international footballers and won absolutely nothing.

 

[The Fear]

Mr "Bang Average" has led your club to a promotion and now likely a second season in the Premier League. It's time to aim your stones at another scapegoat I think.

Everyone else seems able to have a decent debate. I'm not scapegoating or throwing stones, I'm saying my opinion on where Villa are at, and where we will remain, if we continually get average managers. We've done it for 20 years and where has it got us?

I don't need a lecture from you or anyone, over my opinion, and what he has done for 'my' club thanks. I maintain, he didn't wave magic wands last season, and this season, despite the boasting from him and the CEO as to what your club would achieve, we've been woeful.

I would also point out I'm not using hindsight about your manager.

Scraping survival to me is bang average for my club, if it isn't for your club, that is fine, but no need for sarcasm or tone thanks.

 

[The Fear]

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, aware that I’ve somewhat flip flopped throughout the season in my opinion regarding Smith etc.

This is where I’m now at... (still flip flopping!).

IF we stay up (a capitalised IF because it’s Vila and you still never know!) then I’m imagining two scenarios (the first might be wishful thinking).

First scenario (the ‘acting like a big club move’):

We somehow convince Poch and his team that Villa are the club for him. Smith is let go but his legacy is safe having guided us up and kept us up.

I, like all, desperately want us to become a club that can keep our best players (especially when they are home grown!)

Imagine us staying up, but Grealish has an offer from a champs league team that he simply can’t refuse.

But then, the Villa tell him that Poch is coming and he wants to build a team around you.... then would he stay? I think quite possibly.

Would Poch come in the first place? Who knows.

Second Scenario:

We realise we are not ‘there’ just yet in our quest to become a big club that thinks like a big club.

We recognise Smiths achievements and keep faith in him and the aim is a top half finish next season, and then we reassess whether we need someone else to take us forwards. There is an inquest into recruitment strategy, and possibly heads will roll (ie. Jesus but not Smith).

With this in mind, I’ve been taking a look at Man City’s Wickipedia page, needing to jog my memory, and these are the key facts I found:

Taken over in 2008.
Recent history of mid table finishes.
Retained Hughes as Manager.
Flurry of bids for high profile players.
Bought Robinho.
Team finished 10th.

2009 summer: over £100m on players (a lot more dosh than it is even now only 11 years later)
December: sacked Hughes.
Brought in big name in world football, Mancini.
Finished 5th, rest is history.

I’m not saying we look to replicate that, or even that we should model ourselves on that - prefer the Liverpool approach/spurs under Poch (minus their dippy chairman). It was also a different time (ffp), different owners (ours are rich, but not that level of rich!) But the key I think here is that City didn’t take long to start ‘thinking big’ and acting big (and ultimately, are still not a bigger club than Villa! Ha)

I think the big thing for me is all of the rhetoric in the summer was about ‘not making up the numbers’, in it to win it etc etc but it hasn’t been backed up on the pitch.

A combo of being a bit unrealistic, and not getting the buys quite right? Perhaps. If the owners think avoiding a relegation battle, at the very least, was achievable, then Smith’s head probably should be on the chopping block. For those fans that pre season believed finishing 17th (if that turns out to be the case) would be a good achievement, then they would argue against that. I can understand the reasons for that perspective, given the state of our squad when we got promoted. But that wasn’t the line that the club chose to peddle.

But if they talk the talk they need to walk the walk - to my mind though, it’s only worth getting rid of Smith if we can get a top name in woth

If you’re a top player (or up and coming one), who do you want to go and play for? Dean Smith, or Mauricio Pochettino? (Or insert other big name with good record here)

It all hinges on whether we can even get someone like that in, at this stage. And there’s also the problem that a manager like Poch wants to spend money... (sacked by Spurs because Levy wouldn’t spend, basically) how much can we spend? How much are our hands tied at this stage by FFP? (Over to you Mike, I don’t understand this stuff!!)

also if the next season starts in September, it ain’t long for a new manager to get his ideas over. Which is the bigger risk?!

Anyway that’s my garbled attempt at explaining my constantly changing thought process and I’m well aware of my own hipocrisy. I guess that’s what football is all about!

I’m tempting fate I might add, as we could still go down!

I’ve also just had two large coffees and I tend to go off on one.

Great post.


@mike_field one for you to front page mate.

 

[The Fear]

Maybe we made these teams look poor. It can happen. Our wins aren't just down to other teams solely being poor.

Palace were abysmal, surely we all can agree on that one at least? I thought Everton were stale, we blew a win there, but was a welcome point and fairly closely contested maybe, last night I think the tactics totally were responsible for the win, we frustrated them and that is great. I thought they might pass us to death, we didn't let them.

 

[The Fear]

Can I just ask what evidence is there that a manager like Poch would come to a club that has been terrible for more than a decade, spent several years in the second tier of football, and is in a relegation fight to stay in the top flight? What evidence?

No evidence at all sir! Pure conjecture, possibly total fantasy as he is pedigree and we aren't - at the moment, because we all too readily accept average.

So no evidence, but, Benitez would never go to Newcastle, but he did. The leeds guy they said wouldn't accept a Champ club but he did.

Money talks, and there are only so many jobs out there for managers, if a better club comes in for him, bang, gone, no debate. If not? With the right vision, the fight funding etc?

They do know the potential of Aston Villa, it isn't a small club trying to act big. It is a big club acting small.

I doubt we'll have the vision though.

 

[The Fear]

I'd also like to ask what evidence we have that Pottechino would do any better than Dean Smith? Dean came close to winning a league cup for us this season, Pottechino had a squad of world class international footballers and won absolutely nothing.

We didn't win. And to get there, we played a joke Liverpool team and a vastly reduced Wolves. Nice though the run was, I'm not counting another cup loss in the woohoo, let's all celebrate.

What evidence. Ridiculous question really isn't it. There is no evidence anyone would be any good for any club, but the higher the pedigree of manager, player, or any staff, the more chance the odds will be stacked in your favour. It is called logic.

 

[The Fear]

Can I ask for some evidence if this is the new way of doing things... that we'll win Sunday? What evidence that Smith will get better next season? What evidence his assistant manager and assistant coaches have improved our players? What evidence that he has no say in signings? What evidence he is a super coach himself? What evidence his departure from Brentford hasn't aided them to what looks like their best finish ever? What evidence going for a middle of the road manager has ever brought us any success? What evidence we can push on with him? What evidence having a manager like him will be able to attract a top striker that we need? What evidence if we get the striker, that he'll play to his strengths? What evidence that any top player will be attracted to play at a club with impatient fans due to the visions they are always sold, when they look at the manager in charge?

We could get rid of him and he might have been the best thing ever next season, or we could have more of the same. We could attract a top pedigree manager and he could be a disaster, or for once we might attract the right man to push us back towards where some of us believe we should be.

No evidence, just football.

 

[sirdennis]

Palace were abysmal, surely we all can agree on that one at least? I thought Everton were stale, we blew a win there, but was a welcome point and fairly closely contested maybe, last night I think the tactics totally were responsible for the win, we frustrated them and that is great. I thought they might pass us to death, we didn't let them.

I don't disagree Palace were poor , but maybe we made them look poor. There have been a few teams we have played in the past who have been in poor runs and have turned us over , you still have to go out and do the job.

I don't think sometimes the team gets enough credit when we win.

 

[The Fear]

I don't disagree Palace were poor , but maybe we made them look poor. There have been a few teams we have played in the past who have been in poor runs and have turned us over , you still have to go out and do the job.

I don't think sometimes the team gets enough credit when we win.

Yes mate, I understood what you meant, and you can only play what is in front of you, they were rank though... as their form shows. L L L L L

We don't win very often to be fair, credit for the win v Arsenal totally.

 

[ldgavfc]

Everyone else seems able to have a decent debate. I'm not scapegoating or throwing stones, I'm saying my opinion on where Villa are at, and where we will remain, if we continually get average managers. We've done it for 20 years and where has it got us?

I don't need a lecture from you or anyone, over my opinion, and what he has done for 'my' club thanks. I maintain, he didn't wave magic wands last season, and this season, despite the boasting from him and the CEO as to what your club would achieve, we've been woeful.

I would also point out I'm not using hindsight about your manager.

I also think it's incredibly harsh to label Dean Smith as average. Everyone starts somewhere and he has achieved success at every club hes been at.
Scraping survival to me is bang average for my club, if it isn't for your club, that is fine, but no need for sarcasm or tone thanks.

No sarcasm or tone intended, just trying to get my point across like anyone else. Also not lecturing, only debating. I think it's important that people stop throwing stones and scapegoating Dean Smith considering where we are now compared to where we were when he took over and where we expected to be in 2020 when he took over.

I'm sorry, but staying up and reaching a league cup final when most of our competitors have established squads worth 50-100m more than ours when you look into transfers is not "bang average", its exceeding expectations. And yeah, that's an opinion, but one that I think would be shared with the majority of the neutral football world.

No issues with you at all Jon, please dont take my posts personally, love reading your posts on here.

 

[ldgavfc]

We didn't win. And to get there, we played a joke Liverpool team and a vastly reduced Wolves. Nice though the run was, I'm not counting another cup loss in the woohoo, let's all celebrate.

What evidence. Ridiculous question really isn't it. There is no evidence anyone would be any good for any club, but the higher the pedigree of manager, player, or any staff, the more chance the odds will be stacked in your favour. It is called logic.

What pedigree does Pochettino have that Dean doesnt? Like I said, hes won nothing with an almost faultless squad.

 

[The Fear]

Posted a few days ago a Spurs fans comment, not going to start re-debating. I don't see much pedigree Smith wise, will be quicker to just agree to disagree, I've got training to do. Got another Spurs fan post as well, but not sure where I have put it, probably on the other computer. He was saying Poch should go nowhere other than a top ten in the world club, he holds him in such high regard.