Writing Off false hope and Real hope! | Page 3 | Vital Football

Writing Off false hope and Real hope!

Arthur_Itis said:
Agree with all the MiW, but none of that helps us. I'm talking about WAFC and the apparent laying of blame at the feet of the EFL for something that they couldn't control. It;s pointless.
Click to expand...

It isn’t pointless- they’ve imposed a points penalty despite their own negligence in contributing to what’s happened. It’s isn’t pointless for the players who could sue because of it etc. It’s also important there is honesty and transparency - so we know what’s happened and to prevent it happening to other clubs if it’s proven they are t fit to govern.
 
Exactly, I don't understand how Arthur said the EFL couldn't control it, they were sent sufficient evidence in May that the deal clearly shouldn't have passed.

20 days after the first take over a second takeover occurs on the 24th and rushed through, it takes months in normal circumstances to check a takeover. With a skeleton workforce during lockdown measures, they've made a record 20 day check.

This despite there being no proof of this person existing, having the funds and apparently has never entered the UK. Clearly there cannot be the required checks carried out.

Our first sale was agreed April 2018 but took 7 months to ratify and was officially confirmed in November 2018.

Now it's 20 days to carry out checks. No chance. Newcastles is still rumbling on 6+ months later too.
 
NorthernSoul said:
Exactly, I don't understand how Arthur said the EFL couldn't control it, they were sent sufficient evidence in May that the deal clearly shouldn't have passed.

20 days after the first take over a second takeover occurs on the 24th and rushed through, it takes months in normal circumstances to check a takeover. With a skeleton workforce during lockdown measures, they've made a record 20 day check.

This despite there being no proof of this person existing, having the funds and apparently has never entered the UK. Clearly there cannot be the required checks carried out.

Our first sale was agreed April 2018 but took 7 months to ratify and was officially confirmed in November 2018.

Now it's 20 days to carry out checks. No chance. Newcastles is still rumbling on 6+ months later too.
Click to expand...

NorthernSoul,
please explain how the EFL can prevent the sale of a limited company from one person to another ?
please explain how the EFL can prevent an owner of a limited company putting the company into administration.

I understand all of MiW's and other posters points about EFL incompetence and their useless fit and proper persons test, I'm just struggling to understand how we would have been in any different situation (club survival wise, not points wise) if they had acted any differently.
That was the point I was trying to make, nothing to do with membership of the EFL, points deductions, incompetence or anything else. Our downfall has been created by us going into administration, the EFL did not do this and could not prevent it.

I've taken on board MiW's very well thought out points and am happy to concede that perhaps it's not pointless to pursue the EFL re the points deduction, I just hope that we have a club left to support next season whether it starts on 0 or -12. My biggest fear is we will not.
 
Arthur...if the EFL can't stop what's happening to the likes of us what is the point of there even being an EFL body / committee/ panel. I'm fairly certain if this was a Utd or Liverpool scenario the said committee or body would be put under severe scrutiny. You may well say its a loophole or something they can't control , well then that needs to change & possibly the only we can fight this is if we do take legal action & fight it....what other actions do we have!!!!
 
jocklatic said:
Arthur...if the EFL can't stop what's happening to the likes of us what is the point of there even being an EFL body / committee/ panel. I'm fairly certain if this was a Utd or Liverpool scenario the said committee or body would be put under severe scrutiny. You may well say its a loophole or something they can't control , well then that needs to change & possibly the only we can fight this is if we do take legal action & fight it....what other actions do we have!!!!
Click to expand...

Jock, the EFL can prevent membership of their organisation. If you want to run a professional football club in this country you need to be a member and abide by their rules.
What can the EFL, or any governing body for that matter, do if you don't want to run a company as a professional football club ?

I'll leave this discussion alone now, I'm clearly not articulate enough to get my point across, or I'm hopelessly deluded and my point is just nonsense. Either way, I seem to be in a minority of one in this opinion.
 
Arthur_Itis said:
Jock, the EFL can prevent membership of their organisation. If you want to run a professional football club in this country you need to be a member and abide by their rules.
What can the EFL, or any governing body for that matter, do if you don't want to run a company as a professional football club ?

I'll leave this discussion alone now, I'm clearly not articulate enough to get my point across, or I'm hopelessly deluded and my point is just nonsense. Either way, I seem to be in a minority of one in this opinion.
Click to expand...
No, Arthur, I don't think you are. You're just probably being more realistic, based on your business knowledge.

As I said earlier, neither the EFL nor any of us would consider an owner wanting to ruin their own club to be a realistic likelihood.........but I think we're all hoping that they realise that their rules somehow need to change -not sure how though !
 
Arthur_Itis said:
NorthernSoul,
please explain how the EFL can prevent the sale of a limited company from one person to another ?
please explain how the EFL can prevent an owner of a limited company putting the company into administration.

I understand all of MiW's and other posters points about EFL incompetence and their useless fit and proper persons test, I'm just struggling to understand how we would have been in any different situation (club survival wise, not points wise) if they had acted any differently.
That was the point I was trying to make, nothing to do with membership of the EFL, points deductions, incompetence or anything else. Our downfall has been created by us going into administration, the EFL did not do this and could not prevent it.

I've taken on board MiW's very well thought out points and am happy to concede that perhaps it's not pointless to pursue the EFL re the points deduction, I just hope that we have a club left to support next season whether it starts on 0 or -12. My biggest fear is we will not.
Click to expand...

Arthur, you don’t come across as deluded and I’m sorry to hear about your business. This is a complex situation and we’re all trying to make sense of it as facts emerge and the story progresses. Personally I believe emthe efl could have prevented it by doing their job in regards the owners and directors test. Its basically there to stop individuals buying clubs to asset strip them or run them in a manner where they aren’t viable. IEC are on the HK stock exchange and if the efl said this doesn’t add up, there are concerns it has massive ramifications for that company. Everything from there is a domino effect and there is now a suspicion of fraud. Effectively they’ve facilitated that, unknowingly I grant you. I’m not suggesting we wouldn’t have been placed in admin, however the circumstances of this are extremely questionable - we all know it, journalists know it, MPs know it even the administrator knows it and has had to investigate it sooner than he’d like given his focus on selling us to keep us alive.

In regards your point about just having a club to support next season no matter the number of points we start on - I’m in full agreement mate, it’s the primary objective. However there is a sense of injustice here so it has to be looked at.
 
Just to pick up on Arthurs point. He is quite correct that the EFL cannot stop anyone buying a club. They can as you say prevent them from competing in the competition. There is also the case made that no one could have predicted that the Au Yeung would place the company into Admin the moment he got control.

However, the Hong Kong Stock Exchange does have the power to stop the sale and they should also have undertaken due diligence and fit and proper persons tests before allowing the takeover to proceed. This was a transfer from a public company quoted on the exchange, to a private limited company and questions should have been asked as to the reasons for the changes. If any blame needs to be apportioned it is in this direction that it should be directed. Any investigation needs to focus on this transfer as if IEC were merely using this as a vehicle to remove possible bad debt from their books they could be accused of fraudulently altering their accounts by fraudulently transferring the business. This would be a serious breach of regulations and could see them incur massive fines or imprisonment if it could be proven that this was their intention and that it was their intention to boost their share price by doing this.

The problem is we don't know what if anything we could do about it as China is now controlling events over there and we are not exactly on good terms with their government at present.
 
I can't believe anyone is suggesting we don't get the lawyers in and appeal. There has been a lot go on here plenty of potential ground to argue our case - and maybe even more evidence in our favour yet to be uncovered. So you pursue every avenue and hope we find the evidence we need to succesfully appeal.

We need to stay up to make take over easier and minimise further damage in the short term the 12 points deduction with 6 games left is going to be a moutain to climb. But if we can investigate and use the lawyers to fight our case we have an outside chance of a reprieve. We'd be mad to not try it - the rest of the relegation teams would love us just take it without a fight.
 
A hugely complex situation I think we are all agreed, though the posting from Nick De Marco is a revelation as he is a ‘bona fide’ sports barrister at a leading a London law firm,(assuming his Twitter account hasn’t been hacked!) and he must know a great deal more about the technicalities involved than any of us posting on here.
OK maybe he’s ‘fishing’ for a bit of business, (but I doubt he’s desperate for the work)....but taking things at face value he is of the clear legal opinion that something here stinks to high heaven and it certainly bears further investigation.
He is also clear that the EFL should take a breath at least before trying to impose the sanction until things become clearer, whereas they were on to us like a tramp on a kipper, wanting to kick us with unseemly haste.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I can't believe anyone is suggesting we don't get the lawyers in and appeal.
..
We'd be mad to not try it - the rest of the relegation teams would love us just take it without a fight.
Click to expand...

I assume this is aimed at me, I just don't want us to waste precious money.
What exactly are we appealing ? the 12 point deduction ? something else ?
Who said anything about giving up without a fight ? I find that insinuation a little insulting to be honest KDZ, I just want us to focus our anger and our efforts in the right direction, that's all.

As I've already said re the lawyers in other posts, only time will tell if it's money well spent.
I'll publicly declare my OPINION (fears) here, now, I really hope and pray that I'm wrong, but the lawyers will provide zero tangible benefit for the future of Wigan Athletic and will cost us (tens of ??) thousands of pounds.

Right, the rest of the afternoon I'm focusing on just today's match. I've got myself worked up arguing the toss with myself (let alone all of you) about all this other stuff, wish I'd kept my bloody gob (keyboard) shut !

Up the beleaguered Tics
 
Arthur, it's because we all care mate. I hope you have an absolutely brilliant afternoon, and are feeling on top of the world(ish) come 5pm .

:cheers:
 
It’s ok blaming the EFL and their fit and proper owner test but what about Dave Whelan in all this? He was the one that sold the club to these people so surely he passed them as fit and proper. The EFL can only ensure that the buying company has the funds to run a club and that those in charge aren’t subject to legal charges. Had the EFL turned round to Whelan and said actually we don’t like these people, Whelan would have been up in arms and so would the fans.

That said I don’t think Wigan should be penalised through the fault of a crooked or devious owner and the 12 point penalty criteria needs to be completely rethought. There is a massive difference between incompetence and intent and both Wigan’s and Bolton’s administration was through intent. Bury again you could argue was the same and it’s time those responsible were penalised and not the victim. I hope your case for dismissal of the 12 point penalty is successful because Wanderers will then have a similar cause for concern over our punishment. Both owners were passed as fit by the EFL and proven to have the necessary financial resources to run the club yet both decided not to and to pull the plug and put the clubs into administration. It’s a total disgrace so I hope the EFL are exposed for their incompetence in this regard. Good luck with your fight.
 
Arthur_Itis said:
NorthernSoul,
please explain how the EFL can prevent the sale of a limited company from one person to another ?
please explain how the EFL can prevent an owner of a limited company putting the company into administration.

I understand all of MiW's and other posters points about EFL incompetence and their useless fit and proper persons test, I'm just struggling to understand how we would have been in any different situation (club survival wise, not points wise) if they had acted any differently.
That was the point I was trying to make, nothing to do with membership of the EFL, points deductions, incompetence or anything else. Our downfall has been created by us going into administration, the EFL did not do this and could not prevent it.

I've taken on board MiW's very well thought out points and am happy to concede that perhaps it's not pointless to pursue the EFL re the points deduction, I just hope that we have a club left to support next season whether it starts on 0 or -12. My biggest fear is we will not.
Click to expand...

He has become majority owner. Within some point of coming in and take any form of control, there would have required thorough checks. For someone that no one actually knows and has never even entered the UK, means these checks have not occurred.
 
Arthur_Itis said:
I assume this is aimed at me, I just don't want us to waste precious money.
What exactly are we appealing ? the 12 point deduction ? something else ?
Who said anything about giving up without a fight ? I find that insinuation a little insulting to be honest KDZ, I just want us to focus our anger and our efforts in the right direction, that's all.

As I've already said re the lawyers in other posts, only time will tell if it's money well spent.
I'll publicly declare my OPINION (fears) here, now, I really hope and pray that I'm wrong, but the lawyers will provide zero tangible benefit for the future of Wigan Athletic and will cost us (tens of ??) thousands of pounds.

Right, the rest of the afternoon I'm focusing on just today's match. I've got myself worked up arguing the toss with myself (let alone all of you) about all this other stuff, wish I'd kept my bloody gob (keyboard) shut !

Up the beleaguered Tics
Click to expand...

We don't know exactly what we are appealing until we establish the facts - there has clearly been some very dubious goings on and so many questions to suggest there is something to uncover. What we uncover could result in a succesful appeal, stay in the league, 6m+ extra revenue, attract better owners, allow us to sell players for higher prices etc - a succesful appeal is worth literally millions of pounds. The cost of the investigation and appeal will be dwarfed by the potential financial return of if it succeeds - the potential reward is worth the risk of the cost. If we assume there is no evidence worth uncovering we may miss a potential silver bullet because we didn't look. You have to explore all options under these circumstances.

The team can focus their energy on the pitch - lawyers can find out what is going on off it. No need to do one or the other - we can do both.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.