Writing Off false hope and Real hope! | Vital Football

Writing Off false hope and Real hope!

Wlatic

Vital Squad Member
In my opinion the betting stuff just simply wont exist, on the scale required, to have any major impact on what is going on. However today I've been reading the EFL rules and I believe there is hope for us (with a set of half decent lawyers):

All text extracts come from:
https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-3---the-league/

12.3.1 If any Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, that Club shall be deducted 12 points.

** No avoiding this, it happened **

12.3.2 If a Group Undertaking of a Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, then the Board shall have the power to impose upon the Club a deduction of 12 points scored or to be scored in the League Competition. In exercising this power the Board shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case and to:

(c) the reputation of The League and the need to promote the game of association football generally; and

(d) the relationship between the Club and the Group Undertaking.

** Two things here the league allowed the take over to happen and less than a month later we are involved in this crap (c). In addition to this the league can investigate the reasons our parent company decided to take us into administration and why it happened so soon after the buy out (d). **

This is where it gets interesting:

12.3.3 Subject to the provisions of Regulation 12.3.4 below, where the Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, or the Board impose a deduction in accordance with Regulation 12.3.2:

(b) during the Normal Playing Season but after 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March, Regulation 12.3.4 shall apply; and

(c) outside the Normal Playing Season, the points deduction shall apply in respect of the following Season such that the Club starts that Season on minus 12 points (including in the National League if appropriate).

Normal Playing Season’ means the period of the year commencing with the first League Match and, for each Club, ending immediately after the completion of the Club’s final fixture of the League Competition, excluding any Play-Off matches.

** The normal playing season language doesnt make any sense and should be easily legally challenged, "period of the year" when matches are played between two years should be troubling for them.

Normal is defined in the dictionary as "ordinary or usual; the same as would be expected:". Looks like plenty to go on there! **

All in all I feel we'll have to and should accept the 12 points, however from what I can see weve got a very good case that it shouldn't be this season, if we dont pickup the points we need to stay up!
 
Difficult one...basically it means should we start in the Championship with -12 or league 1 on level points.

I'm really not sure but I think it's the latter, just.
 
Best choice ...... stay up with a bigger than 12 point gap and take it this season.

There's no argument for delaying it till next season that really works in our favour. Not really.
 
Moonay, I'm with you, but I think think deferring it to next season would be better than going down with it this season.

The sense of injustice alone could be worth 12 points!

Hindley, My point was from a legal stand point the language used by the regulations doesnt really stand the test of a "none normal" season and there is plenty to go at if we need to defer it until next season.
 
How does the 12 point penalty work. How is it deceided what season they give it you.

Id take it now and try to make up the difference.
 
I dont think the points thing is a big issue. Or not the one we should be focussing on.

Nor it is it where the shyster has disapeared off to, nor is it the alleged bet.

The only issue is gettting enough money to finish the season and get someone to buy the club. That is all that matters. Everything else is meaningless
 
I dont think the points thing is a big issue. Or not the one we should be focussing on.

Nor it is it where the shyster has disapeared off to, nor is it the alleged bet.

The only issue is gettting enough money to finish the season and get someone to buy the club. That is all that matters. Everything else is meaningless

Unfortunately its one in the same thing, us being a championship club, likely to keep a winning team is one kind of purchase, us being a league one team, selling our prized assets and still having a short fall is another.

The way the 12 points is decided is:
If after half way through March a team goes into administration they apply the points:
1) if the team finishes in the bottom 3 the points are applied next season
2) if the team finishes outside the bottom 3 the points are applied to the final league table.
 
Unfortunately its one in the same thing, us being a championship club, likely to keep a winning team is one kind of purchase, us being a league one team, selling our prized assets and still having a short fall is another.

The way the 12 points is decided is:
If after half way through March a team goes into administration they apply the points:
1) if the team finishes in the bottom 3 the points are applied next season
2) if the team finishes outside the bottom 3 the points are applied to the final league table.
So it will be this season then. We are 4 points off safety. Lets get on with closing that gap
 
Leaving aside for the moment our specific circumstances and the fairness of any potential deduction ....The initial principle is that any punishment has to ‘hurt’ or why have one ?
If the points deduction robs you of a European spot or promotion or play off place, or of course relegates you then ‘job done’....if it simply shifts you from say 12th in the Championship to 20th....there’s no material impact. This is why EFL are saying they intend to wait for the season to play out to see when the deduction hurts us most, (though it is interesting to see if that idea directly contradicts their stated timing rules.)

Any investigation into the shithousery that’s transpired here and the prospect of it leading to any justice for Wigan Athletic FC will take months (at ‘lightning speed’), possibly years, and likeliest of all ’forever‘ given the complexities involved and the fact we are being shafted within the legal and financial labyrinth of the Hong Kong systems.

We have only 8/10 weeks between now and the start of next season?

Any points deduction is irrelevant if we cease to exist so job one must be getting immediate bills paid and getting a new owner in .....everything else is irrelevant at this point.

The idea that the EFL will roll over on the punishment is to be fervently hoped for but if they do that they know they’ll be setting a precedent and that’s ‘Pandora’s box’ for them, so while personally I think it ought to happen (given the utterly unique circumstances here) it has to be a real long shot.

Find a new owner...someone to fund the club in the coming weeks ,its the ONLY priority.
 
I'm still struggling to understand how the EFL were supposed to prevent the change in ownership of limited companies, and therefore why people believe they are in some way culpable of something.
Please explain, so that I can understand.
 
What I dont get is after this shithouse hurt us as a club so badly that the EFL's first reaction is to try and hurt us some more.

What kind of organisation operates like that ?

They are rules in black and white, they didn't try to hurt us, they applied the rules of the club that we are members of. I don't believe there is any seaway for them and I'm pretty sure the other members of the club would be up in arms if the rules weren't applied.
 
I'm still struggling to understand how the EFL were supposed to prevent the change in ownership of limited companies, and therefore why people believe they are in some way culpable of something.
Please explain, so that I can understand.
The way I see it Arthur is that if ownership is changing between organisations (ie Whelan to IEC, IEC to NLP), then the EFL have some kind of assessment process. However, when leadership of that organisation is changing (ie with NLP, from Choi to Au Yeung), then there seems to be no checks for "fit and proper" whatsoever.

It seems to me that it's a glaring black hole, that has probably seen lots of "transgressions" previously ..................... but without the shameful outcome we now see with us.

I'm not even sure if the EFL could police such an issue, but unless they try, there seems little point in having the "fit and proper" test in the first place.
 
I'm still struggling to understand how the EFL were supposed to prevent the change in ownership of limited companies, and therefore why people believe they are in some way culpable of something.
Please explain, so that I can understand.

I understand they can’t. However a condition of membership is that the owner is ‘fit and proper’. If not no membership. So effectively you could own the club, but not be allowed to play, so in effect the former would be pointless if you couldn’t do the latter. So in terms of any change they have to approve it to allow the club to effectively carry on playing. And don’t forget they ‘claum’ To have carried out ‘rigorous’ checks.
 
I understand they can’t. However a condition of membership is that the owner is ‘fit and proper’. If not no membership. So effectively you could own the club, but not be allowed to play, so in effect the former would be pointless if you couldn’t do the latter.
I think I've just said the same ................... but as is my wont, I used a lot more words.
;)
 
It's now upto the government and higher ups to really pressure EFL into removing the points deduction and forcing them to alter their rules to safeguard clubs, happened with too many clubs like Bolton and Bury, needs to change now before more clubs are shafted by corrupt law breaking owners.

As for points deduction, every other club fans sees it's unfair now they looked at the reasons as to what went on at Wigan, it's scandalous, we played 40 games this season and there was more enough time for other clubs to rely on winning games the worrying about another club being relegated due to fraud. A football club needs to win eventually, this is not any normal admin.
 
In my opinion the betting stuff just simply wont exist, on the scale required, to have any major impact on what is going on. However today I've been reading the EFL rules and I believe there is hope for us (with a set of half decent lawyers):

All text extracts come from:
https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-3---the-league/

12.3.1 If any Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, that Club shall be deducted 12 points.

** No avoiding this, it happened **

12.3.2 If a Group Undertaking of a Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, then the Board shall have the power to impose upon the Club a deduction of 12 points scored or to be scored in the League Competition. In exercising this power the Board shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case and to:

(c) the reputation of The League and the need to promote the game of association football generally; and

(d) the relationship between the Club and the Group Undertaking.

** Two things here the league allowed the take over to happen and less than a month later we are involved in this crap (c). In addition to this the league can investigate the reasons our parent company decided to take us into administration and why it happened so soon after the buy out (d). **

This is where it gets interesting:

12.3.3 Subject to the provisions of Regulation 12.3.4 below, where the Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, or the Board impose a deduction in accordance with Regulation 12.3.2:

(b) during the Normal Playing Season but after 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March, Regulation 12.3.4 shall apply; and

(c) outside the Normal Playing Season, the points deduction shall apply in respect of the following Season such that the Club starts that Season on minus 12 points (including in the National League if appropriate).

Normal Playing Season’ means the period of the year commencing with the first League Match and, for each Club, ending immediately after the completion of the Club’s final fixture of the League Competition, excluding any Play-Off matches.

** The normal playing season language doesnt make any sense and should be easily legally challenged, "period of the year" when matches are played between two years should be troubling for them.

Normal is defined in the dictionary as "ordinary or usual; the same as would be expected:". Looks like plenty to go on there! **

All in all I feel we'll have to and should accept the 12 points, however from what I can see weve got a very good case that it shouldn't be this season, if we dont pickup the points we need to stay up!

I reached the same conclusion when I read them Wednesday night.

Effectively overturning the penalty will be difficult, despite their own failings in contributing to it. However when it’s imposed is open to interpretation and so would stand a good chance of being subject to legal challenge.
 
I think I've just said the same ................... but as is my wont, I used a lot more words.
;)

Was obviously typing at same time! I think they still do the checks regardless- they can’t stop someone owning a company, that’s beyond their purview, but what they can do is stop that company competing in its leagues.
 
Do you still love me now you're sober bitch ? ( presuming you are sober ).

Hope so...I may need help with the goldfish laptop later.

Hey, big boy, I was merely well lubricated last night (:oops:).

Did you try logging into the Club website on your telly (via t' interweb)? Either that, or try casting it from your phone. Though that was supposed to be disabled, I'm sure I read that it had actually worked for some folk,

Regardless, we'll hold your hand. ........again.
;)