Politics and football. | Page 7 | Vital Football

Politics and football.

Are the life of those 3 gay white people from the UK worth less than the life of 1 black man from another country?'

Why ask the question? Why draw the comparison? Why link the two? The answer's no by the way.

What good would it do being outraged at an individual. ........who will pay for what he did.............. as will others who carry out such disgraceful actions.

Law enforcement however shouldn't be expected to a "threat". As it happens, I don't perceive them that way ....................... though I'm concerned at the fact that others do.

I'm sure the vast majority of police officers - both here and in the US - hold no truck with racism ............... let's hope they prevail in ensuring they either educate or remove their colleagues who feel and act differently.
 
moonay said:
Are the life of those 3 gay white people from the UK worth less than the life of 1 black man from another country?'

Why ask the question? Why draw the comparison? Why link the two? The answer's no by the way.

What good would it do being outraged at an individual. ........who will pay for what he did.............. as will others who carry out such disgraceful actions.

Law enforcement however shouldn't be expected to a "threat". As it happens, I don't perceive them that way ....................... though I'm concerned at the fact that others do.

I'm sure the vast majority of police officers - both here and in the US - hold no truck with racism ............... let's hope they prevail in ensuring they either educate or remove their colleagues who feel and act differently.
Click to expand...

You are pointing out exactly the issue of perception - the narrative is saying 'black lives matter' is ok while 'white lives matter' is supposedly invalid as no one thinks they are less important that black lives. But we have a direct example of one case getting significantly more coverage and outrage than the other and as mentioned 3 cases of police brutality against white people that are just as bad as Floyd but didn't get interntaional coverage. People will look at the variables and see race as one factor and think that maybe white lives don't matter as much and feel as offended as anyone would feel if they feel they are being judged more or less based on race. I don't personally think that is the right conclusion to draw - but now we are being increasingly encouraged to see things through the prism of race people are going to look at more things in the same way and i think they can jump to bad conclusions. It encourages everyone to think that any little conicidence could be a racial slight against them and snowballs and I think it's a accident waiting to happen and a path we desperetly need to try and avoid.

By bringing identity into one case you automatically invite comparisons to another happening around the same time and when there is a strong contrasts with the response that is going to raise questions as to why. If it was the other way round i think the BLM people would be saying exactly the same in reverse - 'why are they covering that 1 white victim of police brutality in America so much more than the 3 black victims of terrorism in the UK' and i think they would say it is down to race - which is what is happening now in reverse. If you take out the racial component of both and you say 3 victims of terrorism and 1 victim of police brutality you don't have the same argument around the significance of identity currently going on.

This is the issue with identity politics it is a slipperly slope we don't want to be on.

With Floyd the issue is the state failed to protect their citizens by having a person who was unsuitable to hold the position that wasn't weeded out by their training or selection process. In the terrorist case the guy was known to authorities as a potential threat i believe and therefore probably shouldn't have even been in the country but they failed to deport him. In each instance the state failed it's responsibility so there are parraells. Both shouldn't happen.
 
Last edited:
I'll say again KDZ, you can't compare the two. Just like those idiots trying tho compare the remembrance of Lee Rigby the other week.

I've already said that BLM would have been better off choosing ALM, or BLMtoo, but they didn't. However, to then try and say "ah, but what about" for every other killing is just daft.

All that said, I fully agree with your last paragraph.
 
moonay said:
I'll say again KDZ, you can't compare the two. Just like those idiots trying tho compare the remembrance of Lee Rigby the other week.

I've already said that BLM would have been better off choosing ALM, or BLMtoo, but they didn't. However, to then try and say "ah, but what about" for every other killing is just daft.

All that said, I fully agree with your last paragraph.
Click to expand...

You say you can't compare it but it's already happening, any post on social media is flooded with these type of arguments and people mostly responding by simply calling them racist - both sides of the argument feel the other is unfairly attacking them. There is a vacum at the moment where not enough high profile, sensible voices are having good conversations and making good arguments without those conversations the gap will widen rather than bring people around a cause. It's a bomb going off unless we try and diffuse it.
 
moonay said:
I'll say again KDZ, you can't compare the two. Just like those idiots trying tho compare the remembrance of Lee Rigby the other week.

I've already said that BLM would have been better off choosing ALM, or BLMtoo, but they didn't. However, to then try and say "ah, but what about" for every other killing is just daft.

All that said, I fully agree with your last paragraph.
Click to expand...

I've tried to stay away from this thread or comment on it but having read some (imo) deluded comments I just can't bite my tongue or in this instance stop myself from tapping on my keyboard in reply.
Just who gives you the right to say someone / anyone can't compare Lee Rigby / the 3 victims in Reading to this BLM fad. I always had you down as a fairly central thinking person who can see most sides of a debate / argument / discussion but of late it's like listening to some disgruntled left of centre moaning owd chap who regardless of any coherent & reasonable replies you read you just dismiss them....KDZ's replies for example..which were good posts BTW.
 
Jock, I give myself the right, because it's my opinion. Regardless, it's just a turn of phrase. Putting that to one side though, what exactly do we have? -

The killing of a member of the military by a terrorist - condemned by everyone.
The killing of 3 innocent men by a (suspected?) terrorist - condemned by everyone.
The killing of a man during an arrest by Police - the police officer is now facing charges.

That's why they can't/shouldn't be compared.

I think what I've said - both on these killings and on BLM - to be reasonable. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

As I said, I agreed (as I often do) with much of what KDZ said ........... but not the comparisons. I've given reasons. I've explained my logic. I'm not sure why you feel compelled to label me as "some disgruntled left of centre moaning owd chap" ....... even though I may well recognise myself in some or all of that description. I certainly wouldn't be ashamed of it.

:cheers:
 
moonay said:
Jock, I give myself the right, because it's my opinion. Regardless, it's just a turn of phrase. Putting that to one side though, what exactly do we have? -

The killing of a member of the military by a terrorist - condemned by everyone.
The killing of 3 innocent men by a (suspected?) terrorist - condemned by everyone.
The killing of a man during an arrest by Police - the police officer is now facing charges.

That's why they can't/shouldn't be compared.

I think what I've said - both on these killings and on BLM - to be reasonable. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

As I said, I agreed (as I often do) with much of what KDZ said ........... but not the comparisons. I've given reasons. I've explained my logic. I'm not sure why you feel compelled to label me as "some disgruntled left of centre moaning owd chap" ....... even though I may well recognise myself in some or all of that description. I certainly wouldn't be ashamed of it.

:cheers:
Click to expand...

For clarity the comparison i am refering to is the scale of the reaction to the instances from the media rather than the instances themselves.
 
moonay said:
Jock, I give myself the right, because it's my opinion. Regardless, it's just a turn of phrase. Putting that to one side though, what exactly do we have? -

The killing of a member of the military by a terrorist - condemned by everyone.
The killing of 3 innocent men by a (suspected?) terrorist - condemned by everyone.
The killing of a man during an arrest by Police - the police officer is now facing charges.

That's why they can't/shouldn't be compared.

I think what I've said - both on these killings and on BLM - to be reasonable. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

As I said, I agreed (as I often do) with much of what KDZ said ........... but not the comparisons. I've given reasons. I've explained my logic. I'm not sure why you feel compelled to label me as "some disgruntled left of centre moaning owd chap" ....... even though I may well recognise myself in some or all of that description. I certainly wouldn't be ashamed of it.

:cheers:
Click to expand...

" I give myself the right because it's my opinion"....it may well be but you then go on to tell KDZ he cannot compare the two....your opinion yet your telling a poster that what he can / cannot compare.....did you suddenly become the Head judge in what posters opinions are / aren't right!!!!
I'm starting to see what imo is racial divides being set by people way above us, stoking up this notion that so long as you can hide behind blm flag / movement that its OK for civil unrest, looting, attacking the police, disregard for any authority & if in any doubt ensure you have a phone to hand so you can film your 'exploits' as you may well cause a reaction from anyone opposing your views despite your severe provocation....

"can't or shouldn't be compared".......tell you what Moonay I have seen & heard of squaddies being given absolute shit on the streets, be that Ireland, Afghanistan or even on their home soil, so to say 'not compare' when they have been targeted either verbally or in some cases fatally then yes I will compare....should I start a movement, say FLM( Forces Lives Matter)or is that politically insensitive & just not trendy yet....or even GLM, again not in the current light....In answer to my own questions...NO, cos All lives Matter ...we can & should be allowed to compare otherwise we are just playing divide & conquer ...IMO.

BTW...wouldn't want u to be ashamed of being owd n disgruntled, aren't all of us a certain age getting like that 🍻🍻

Edit...in balance I should add that some of those following the WLM hide behind this guise to create civil unrest, intimidation & violence.
 
jocklatic said:
" I give myself the right because it's my opinion"....it may well be but you then go on to tell KDZ he cannot compare the two....your opinion yet your telling a poster that what he can / cannot compare.....did you suddenly become the Head judge in what posters opinions are / aren't right!!!!
I'm starting to see what imo is racial divides being set by people way above us, stoking up this notion that so long as you can hide behind blm flag / movement that its OK for civil unrest, looting, attacking the police, disregard for any authority & if in any doubt ensure you have a phone to hand so you can film your 'exploits' as you may well cause a reaction from anyone opposing your views despite your severe provocation....

"can't or shouldn't be compared".......tell you what Moonay I have seen & heard of squaddies being given absolute shit on the streets, be that Ireland, Afghanistan or even on their home soil, so to say 'not compare' when they have been targeted either verbally or in some cases fatally then yes I will compare....should I start a movement, say FLM( Forces Lives Matter)or is that politically insensitive & just not trendy yet....or even GLM, again not in the current light....In answer to my own questions...NO, cos All lives Matter ...we can & should be allowed to compare otherwise we are just playing divide & conquer ...IMO.

BTW...wouldn't want u to be ashamed of being owd n disgruntled, aren't all of us a certain age getting like that 🍻🍻
Click to expand...

To be fair I don't think moonay is trying to tell anyone they must not think something, more he belives they shouldn't in his opinion. At least that is the way I took it.

The opinion in question isn't even my own but the one that is relevent to the discussion as it the counter narrative forming. I understand why people draw that conclusion but I think it's falling for the divide and conquer that some people are trying to provoke. It's an emotive and people are reacting on a gut level, unfortunately not enough sane voices calming folks down and pointing out the trap that so many risk falling into.
 
richymac said:
Do I have to say again... Nobody is saying all lives don’t matter. Literally nobody.

Black Lives matter because they’ve been subjugated for centuries and we have to realise that black people in our society do matter.

so whilst there are problems for all of us. Black lives need extra help. It’s really really simple and you shouldn’t need me to point it out.
Click to expand...
Do you really, really think black people are currently "subjugated" in the UK ?
As a person of some colour I find that an offensive statement - not in my experience or in my name you deluded fool.
Do the black people rioting in Brixton need extra help ? do the "asylum seekers" (in reality economic migrants) killing people in Reading and stabbing people in Glasgow deserve extra help ?
No they need locking up and / or deporting
How can the indefensible be defended ?
You should take a long look in the mirror here
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
For clarity the comparison i am refering to is the scale of the reaction to the instances from the media rather than the instances themselves.
Click to expand...
Cheers mate. Of course I wasn't telling you (or anyone) what you should or shouldn't do .................. I was saying that because of the difference in circumstances, there's no comparison to make.

Jock,
I'm still not sure that you've understood what I was trying to say.......though I think I've been as clear as I can.

The killings of Lee Rigby and the 3 men in Reading were atrocious. Hence, they were condemned by everyone. The killers were assumed to be terrorists, and were treated accordingly.

The killing of George Floyd (and others) was "unintentional", but happened through the use of excessive force by the relative law enforcement officer(s)........ and that's the difference. Demonstrating that terrorists should change their ways probably wouldn't achieve much. Demonstrating that law enforcement officers should look at their methods for restraint stands more chance of a change being made.

That's what caused the uproar.........and why there'e no comparison to be made.

As for BLM, ALM, WLM, I've had my say on that.
(y)
 
So following on from BLM which a fair few on here & a great majority worldwide think is the best thing ever....how do they feel about #blackpoundday? Where do we stop with all this nonsense?

Edit....just seen a video online....now having a march for BTLM( 'T' = Trans)...as I say where will this end!!
"No justice, no peace, fuck the police"...is their mantra.....Great for peace n harmony NOT
 
Last edited:
jocklatic said:
So following on from BLM which a fair few on here & a great majority worldwide think is the best thing ever....how do they feel about #blackpoundday? Where do we stop with all this nonsense?

Edit....just seen a video online....now having a march for BTLM( 'T' = Trans)...as I say where will this end!!
"No justice, no peace, fuck the police"...is their mantra.....Great for peace n harmony NOT
Click to expand...

Just had to google #blackpoundday. I think summat like that is obviously wrong, as it's clearly divisive.

That said, I well remember as a teenager not being allowed (by my Tackler Dad) to buy "Empire Made" clothes. Had to be British made. ......... though I suppose it's not the same.
 
jocklatic said:
So following on from BLM which a fair few on here & a great majority worldwide think is the best thing ever....how do they feel about #blackpoundday? Where do we stop with all this nonsense?

Edit....just seen a video online....now having a march for BTLM( 'T' = Trans)...as I say where will this end!!
"No justice, no peace, fuck the police"...is their mantra.....Great for peace n harmony NOT
Click to expand...
It's a little ironic that those crying for equality are now actively encouraging segregation 🤔
 
Segregation Hampton? Hardly the best choice of word. If you're referring to Jock's point, then surely that's positive selection, or focused discrimination. (Note, I'm not supporting either of these).

Segregation though (as per 1950s/60s USA), that's something on a different level.
 
An apology. Well, two.

I love Pie. (I love pie too for that matter). He seems to have a knack of hitting nails on the head....... regardless of colour, shape, length, or political persuasion.

In this clip, he mentions "segregation"......... in a different context to which I was taking Hampton's comment. Hence the apology.

Also, I have to say that I think what Pie pinpoints here is probably the essence of what MiW often whinged about re the left ........but with less name calling. 😉. So, a little bit of a "sorry" here too.

It's a good watch ........ and expresses a view I wholly support.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1276910445648060419
 
moonay said:
An apology. Well, two.

I love Pie. (I love pie too for that matter). He seems to have a knack of hitting nails on the head....... regardless of colour, shape, length, or political persuasion.

In this clip, he mentions "segregation"......... in a different context to which I was taking Hampton's comment. Hence the apology.

Also, I have to say that I think what Pie pinpoints here is probably the essence of what MiW often whinged about re the left ........but with less name calling. 😉. So, a little bit of a "sorry" here too.

It's a good watch ........ and expresses a view I wholly support.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1276910445648060419
Click to expand...

Just watched it.......what he says is so very true, funny & to the point......'oops,ping off to the incinerator I go' 🤐
 
Not sure about less of the name calling - the ‘perma offended woke twats’ line was just brilliant. Think I may have to nick that one. And yes he sums up what I’ve been saying - but with more humour.

It was actually a very good clip (a diamond in amongst the twitter shit 😉). So true and so on point. It’s worthy of exposure on a far wider scale than I suspect it’s reached. Has it been sent to Owen Jones!?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.