So, whadda we gonna moan abart? | Page 120 | Vital Football

So, whadda we gonna moan abart?

I'm not sure Hampton will be happy with you trying to undermine his assertion like that MiW. ;)

Any road ........that says "a route out of the lockdown", not easement.

As I said, there's not a single article where Starmer calls for easement. If you two chaps can't differentiate between calling for exiting lockdown (easement) and calling for a route (or a plan) for exiting lockdown, then, what can I say.......... more home schooling for you two !

As for grooming and Saville, here we go again. As has already been shown MiW, twice I think now, Starmer was party to getting the grooming re-assessed, and the lawyer for many of Saville's victims praised Starmer for his involvement and commitment in the case. I've no doubt you'll bring it up again though .......even though it's of no relevance to the discussion.

Demanding a path out of lockdown? .......... has he distanced himself from that ? I don't think so. I'd say that a path and a route and a plan were all the same ...... he distanced himself from calling for easement........ not the path/plan/route.

Anyway, thank God it's all clear now.

 
I'm not sure Hampton will be happy with you trying to undermine his assertion like that MiW. ;)

Any road ........that says "a route out of the lockdown", not easement.

As I said, there's not a single article where Starmer calls for easement. If you two chaps can't differentiate between calling for exiting lockdown (easement) and calling for a route (or a plan) for exiting lockdown, then, what can I say.......... more home schooling for you two !

As for grooming and Saville, here we go again. As has already been shown MiW, twice I think now, Starmer was party to getting the grooming re-assessed, and the lawyer for many of Saville's victims praised Starmer for his involvement and commitment in the case. I've no doubt you'll bring it up again though .......even though it's of no relevance to the discussion.

Demanding a path out of lockdown? .......... has he distanced himself from that ? I don't think so. I'd say that a path and a route and a plan were all the same ...... he distanced himself from calling for easement........ not the path/plan/route.

Anyway, thank God it's all clear now.

As above no point continuing this if you are unable to move on from denial Moonay 🙄
 
As above no point continuing this if you are unable to move on from denial Moonay 🙄

Seriously mate .........a route/path/plan to exit lockdown, isn't the same as wanting to exit lockdown. Is it?

You tried to find evidence ........and failed. The fact you still believe it doesn't make it right though.

Anyway, we're beyond that point now. We're into the easement stage. Let's see how everybody fares from hereon in.
 
None so blind as those who won't see !
Tried to explain the political positioning of what SKS did - agent provocateur- shown you the evidence per the guardian of his underhand tactic to pressure the govt.
You seen the interview where he flustered backwards at a rate of knots.
If you can't/ won't recognise what his game was I am genuinely surprised.

Respect your position of course but come the second spike he will need to take his share of responsibilty and no amount of deflective slipperyness will excuse what he started.
 
One article. One speech. One interview. That's all. Just one, and I'll condemn him for it.

Route, path, plan, absolutely. Exit, easement, ........nope, just hasn't happened.
 
Seriously mate .........a route/path/plan to exit lockdown, isn't the same as wanting to exit lockdown. Is it?

You tried to find evidence ........and failed. The fact you still believe it doesn't make it right though.

Anyway, we're beyond that point now. We're into the easement stage. Let's see how everybody fares from hereon in.

Sorry if this is a bit of a childish analogy...but isn't KS like a child in the back of BJ's car on a road trip...."Boris, Boris, are we there yet, Boris are we there yet"?????
KS may well not have actually asked when Lockdown will be lifted but the way he's constantly gone on about it he might as well have...like the child in the back seat of the car.....keep asking till the parent snaps n says something they shouldn't.
As MiW said BJ should have just stuck to his guns n said Lockdown continues for now until it's safe to ease it in conjunction with the scientific advice.
What it has now done is opened a can of worms after the confusing & uncertainty of BJ's address last night.
Def not helped by NS / MD....both whom will do the opposite of the government plans. I've no doubt wee Jimmy Kranke would do the direct opposite of the government whatever decision they made & she'd also have a different outlook if the Scottish government were picking up their share of the furlough tab.....
 
Sorry if this is a bit of a childish analogy...but isn't KS like a child in the back of BJ's car on a road trip...."Boris, Boris, are we there yet, Boris are we there yet"?????
KS may well not have actually asked when Lockdown will be lifted but the way he's constantly gone on about it he might as well have...like the child in the back seat of the car.....keep asking till the parent snaps n says something they shouldn't.

No. He's not. He's not been asking that question at all Jock. He;s been asking Boris if he had a map with him, and did he know where he was going, and which turns he had to make.

I've just watched the news, and a couple of businesses say that they just aren't ready for getting their workforce back in, but obeying social distancing rules. That's the point of the "plan for a plan", rather than just flicking the switch.

As MiW said BJ should have just stuck to his guns n said Lockdown continues for now until it's safe to ease it in conjunction with the scientific advice.
What it has now done is opened a can of worms after the confusing & uncertainty of BJ's address last night.

Jock, the only ones calling for lockdown to be lifted (that I've seen anyway) were Tory donor businessmen and Tory MPs. Johnson could have ignored them if he so chose ........but he didn't .....or daren't.

Def not helped by NS / MD....both whom will do the opposite of the government plans. I've no doubt wee Jimmy Kranke would do the direct opposite of the government whatever decision they made & she'd also have a different outlook if the Scottish government were picking up their share of the furlough tab.....

Hold on ....... you've just said that Johnson should have kept the lockdown, but in the same breath, you're criticising Sturgeon for doing exactly that !!! How hypocritical is that?!

Not sure who you mean by MD.
 
No. He's not. He's not been asking that question at all Jock. He;s been asking Boris if he had a map with him, and did he know where he was going, and which turns he had to make.

I've just watched the news, and a couple of businesses say that they just aren't ready for getting their workforce back in, but obeying social distancing rules. That's the point of the "plan for a plan", rather than just flicking the switch.



Jock, the only ones calling for lockdown to be lifted (that I've seen anyway) were Tory donor businessmen and Tory MPs. Johnson could have ignored them if he so chose ........but he didn't .....or daren't.



Hold on ....... you've just said that Johnson should have kept the lockdown, but in the same breath, you're criticising Sturgeon for doing exactly that !!! How hypocritical is that?!

Not sure who you mean by MD.

Yes he is.....& he knew he'd eventually get a reaction but he's not alone in that, prob businessmen, Tory donors et al


I'm not criticising Sturgeon for keeping the lockdown but merely tongue in cheek that she'll do the opposite of the government stance. If Boris says black she'll say white imo.

MD = Mark Drakeford 1st minister for Wales

Soz I've not got ur talents to quote n reply individual bits.....techno fear or no techno 😪😉
 
Same challenge as to Hampton Jock ......................... Find anything by Starmer asking for easement, rather than merely asking for a route/path/plan to exit lockdown.

They're completely different things.

It's like asking Cook for his intentions re substitutions, dependent on circumstances ..................... and telling him that he needs to make a sub immediately, cos you don't like the team he's picked.

Plan/route/path ........................ action.

;)
 
Not sure who you mean by MD.
Mark Drakeford, first minister of Wales, I believe. I also agree with everything you've said in the last few replies.

I'm still yet to see any more than bluster and confusion from Johnson, but today was a very small step forward for him. I would respect his position more if he held his hands up and said they messed up earlier on.

Starmer is very good imo. Cool, calm and composed. Just what we need in a er, erm well *something in french* leader.

EDIT:Didn't know Jock already said who MD was. apologies.
 
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I'm not sure Hampton will be happy with you trying to undermine his assertion like that MiW. ;)

Any road ........that says "a route out of the lockdown", not easement.

As I said, there's not a single article where Starmer calls for easement. If you two chaps can't differentiate between calling for exiting lockdown (easement) and calling for a route (or a plan) for exiting lockdown, then, what can I say.......... more home schooling for you two !

As for grooming and Saville, here we go again. As has already been shown MiW, twice I think now, Starmer was party to getting the grooming re-assessed, and the lawyer for many of Saville's victims praised Starmer for his involvement and commitment in the case. I've no doubt you'll bring it up again though .......even though it's of no relevance to the discussion.

Demanding a path out of lockdown? .......... has he distanced himself from that ? I don't think so. I'd say that a path and a route and a plan were all the same ...... he distanced himself from calling for easement........ not the path/plan/route.

Anyway, thank God it's all clear now.


I was gonna reply in detail but I think Jock has it nailed. The fella was pestering and moaning - as soon as he got his wish he backtracked rather quickly and has now been called out by several media agencies. As I said there was no need to articulate any plan as the result has been exactly as I feared. Boris fell into the trap, i hope for better in the future.
 
How on earth did Jock "have it nailed"? His analogy was wide of the mark ............ as I illustrated.

I've got to say, I find it amazing that intelligent blokes like yourselves insist on believing that something has happened, when there's absolutely no evidence to support it.

I do agree though that Johnson has made a mess of the plan. I thought his performance yesterday was OK ......... but then Starmer ripped Johnson a new one today, when his 50?/60? page plan kept on referring to additional detail ......... that isn't available, yet it's to support a return to work on wednesday ......... and employers will need to prepare for their restart. It's a mess that could have been avoided if it didn't all seem so ham-fisted.

I know you say Starmer's voice makes you switch off, but after years of watching Johnson, Corbyn, May, and Milliband (I suppose I can't really put Cameron or Brown into this category), fumble around in the HoC, it's a delight watching someone with genuine intellect and analysis.

I can see that he may struggle to get the left wing of his party (both in and especially out of parliament) fully onside, (though god knows why) but Johnson's blustering Old Etonian cheerleading will be no match for the Starmer's calm scrutiny ................. which is another reason why Johnson won't last the course.
 
How on earth did Jock "have it nailed"? His analogy was wide of the mark ............ as I illustrated.

I've got to say, I find it amazing that intelligent blokes like yourselves insist on believing that something has happened, when there's absolutely no evidence to support it.

I do agree though that Johnson has made a mess of the plan. I thought his performance yesterday was OK ......... but then Starmer ripped Johnson a new one today, when his 50?/60? page plan kept on referring to additional detail ......... that isn't available, yet it's to support a return to work on wednesday ......... and employers will need to prepare for their restart. It's a mess that could have been avoided if it didn't all seem so ham-fisted.

I know you say Starmer's voice makes you switch off, but after years of watching Johnson, Corbyn, May, and Milliband (I suppose I can't really put Cameron or Brown into this category), fumble around in the HoC, it's a delight watching someone with genuine intellect and analysis.

I can see that he may struggle to get the left wing of his party (both in and especially out of parliament) fully onside, (though god knows why) but Johnson's blustering Old Etonian cheerleading will be no match for the Starmer's calm scrutiny ................. which is another reason why Johnson won't last the course.

Yep, Jock has it nailed. Starmer was going on and on and on about plans. One was given and he suddenly did his best Italian tank impression and tried to backtrack. Seems to be the sort of bloke that likes to distance himself from any decision he makes. Not good.
 
Moonay u not think that perhaps had the likes of Starmer, Sturgeon, the Media & others not kept going on & on about a plan for a plan /an exit strategy / what we doing next - then maybe we could have avoided all this sudden confusion & uncertainty.
IMO we should have just carried on with lockdown & the government saying that they'll wait till the scientific advice tells them otherwise.
 
Yep, Jock has it nailed. Starmer was going on and on and on about plans. One was given and he suddenly did his best Italian tank impression and tried to backtrack. Seems to be the sort of bloke that likes to distance himself from any decision he makes. Not good.

Well, I'm glad that at least you've acknowledged that he was persistent in asking for a plan. I agree he was, and rightly so.

Now that a plan has been forumlated and released (and let's face it, even though the "return to work if you can" advice was maybe understandably given, there was no reason at all for any easement in the otherwise "Stay at home" instruction) all Starmer has done is to point out the flaws in the plan............ which probably goes to show that despite all the offers to help in certain areas, Starmer and his shadow ministers weren't directly involved in some/many aspects.

With hindsight, (but not really), what should have been done was:

- Early last week - advise which industries will probably be going back (& school)
- On 7th (review date) - do his brief advising the dates for return to work/school
- Also on 7th - advise no further easement ...... no meeting up
- Monday 11th - have all the additional detail ready (mentioned in the plan) to support the return to work......transport, workplace, whatever else.

Jock ........ no. We're going to come out at some point. A plan just shows that we'll be prepared for whenever that point might be. On reflection, this was a half hearted mish-mash. As it happens, I agree with you re the continuation of the lockdown ..........but that doesn't stop us having a plan for how we'll handle it when we do start to ease lockdown. (though surely, as the government is "following the science", then the scientific advice must surely be telling them that it's OK to return right now).
 
Just switching the topic ............................. Common sense ! Firstly, is it all that common, and secondly, who has the last say on what's "sense"?

An interesting point here ...................

After the Grenfell tragedy, Rees Mogg argued that it should have led some of those who tragically lost their lives to ignore official advice. (Not heard much from him recently, have we).

On the other hand, Johnson is (understandably) assuming - and hoping - that it will cause us to follow the advice.............. irrespective of the street parties we saw last weekend.

I really hope that the non-application of 'common sense' will be used to point the finger at the public for any possible flare up in the death rate in the next few weeks and months.
 
Jock ........ no. We're going to come out at some point. A plan just shows that we'll be prepared for whenever that point might be. On reflection, this was a half hearted mish-mash. As it happens, I agree with you re the continuation of the lockdown ..........but that doesn't stop us having a plan for how we'll handle it when we do start to ease lockdown. (though surely, as the government is "following the science", then the scientific advice must surely be telling them that it's OK to return right now).

At what point in my post did I say 'we're going to come out at some point'????

Apologises that I erased / didn't quote your 'hindsight' plan...why haven't you been contacted by the Cabinet to be hired as chief exit strategy analyst extraordinaire.... now don't get touchy, I say it in jest cos I know you'd never work for your beloved Boris!!!

All this hankering for a plan imo was just to have a pop at the government...
1. If he didn't give a plan - Opposition / media etc would have carried on crying for a plan.
2. If said plan had been spot on - cue the Opposition / Media asking why wasn't the plan briefed earlier.
3.The actual plan.....well its given all n sundry a field day to slate the government.
4....well 4 is government / Boris was f@cked if he did & f@cked if he didn't.....

P.S. No hindsight or forethought was used in the making of this post & any characters portrayed are merely fictional 😉😉😉😉
 
At what point in my post did I say 'we're going to come out at some point'????

I didn't say that you did....... in fact, I'm not sure why you think I said you did.

Apologises that I erased / didn't quote your 'hindsight' plan...why haven't you been contacted by the Cabinet to be hired as chief exit strategy analyst extraordinaire.... now don't get touchy, I say it in jest cos I know you'd never work for your beloved Boris!!!

No touchiness. ......it's just straightforward planning procedure. Obviously, I've never been involved in something like this, but the principles of planning strategy can still be applied.

Re the hindsight, I did say "not really", as I'd said something similar re the "plan for a plan" couple of weeks ago, but was told to wait for 7th May.

All this hankering for a plan imo was just to have a pop at the government...
1. If he didn't give a plan - Opposition / media etc would have carried on crying for a plan.
2. If said plan had been spot on - cue the Opposition / Media asking why wasn't the plan briefed earlier.
3.The actual plan.....well its given all n sundry a field day to slate the government.
4....well 4 is government / Boris was f@cked if he did & f@cked if he didn't.....

You're obviously entitled to your opinion Jock, but, just because he's made a bit if a balls of it doesn't mean that asking for a plan to be shared, in the right detail, at the right time was the wrong thing to do.

Wasn't Hancock (or was it Raab?) saying last week that the government have done "the right things at the right time"?. Well, in this case, they certainly haven't.

P.S. No hindsight or forethought was used in the making of this post & any characters portrayed are merely fictional 😉😉😉😉

:thumbup:
 
Mark Drakeford, first minister of Wales, I believe. I also agree with everything you've said in the last few replies.

I'm still yet to see any more than bluster and confusion from Johnson, but today was a very small step forward for him. I would respect his position more if he held his hands up and said they messed up earlier on.

Starmer is very good imo. Cool, calm and composed. Just what we need in a er, erm well *something in french* leader.

EDIT:Didn't know Jock already said who MD was. apologies.
He even translated the French incorrectly
The French slogan does not mean stay alert
 
Common Sense - we have to apply this according to government guidance.
So explain please, the good Mrs DAM and I can drive for 2 hours to meet our daughter and grandchild in a park in the East Midlands. However, only one of us can stand 2m apart and chat to them.
Do the Tories think we are posh like them and sleep in separate bedrooms and live separate lives, bloody madness.