The problem back in 2016 Wayne was that they thought that they did know the answer to it.
They had just scared the Scots s*itless with a barrage of Project Fear and wrongly assumed that the English suckers would fall for the same bulls*it.
Even now, there is very little positive stories coming out about why we should remain, if given another vote.
Just the same old stuff about the end of the world should we once again vote to leave.
You would think that after 40+ years of membership they could find a few positive stories to write about.
You know, some specifics.
It's great to be a member of the EU because …..
It's a tough gig because many who were totally disinterested before have woken up.
Idiot - this is why referendums shouldn't happen
The problem back in 2016 Wayne was that they thought that they did know the answer to it.
They had just scared the Scots s*itless with a barrage of Project Fear and wrongly assumed that the English suckers would fall for the same bulls*it.
Even now, there is very little positive stories coming out about why we should remain, if given another vote.
Just the same old stuff about the end of the world should we once again vote to leave.
You would think that after 40+ years of membership they could find a few positive stories to write about.
You know, some specifics.
It's great to be a member of the EU because...
The problem back in 2016 Wayne was that they thought that they did know the answer to it.
They had just scared the Scots s*itless with a barrage of Project Fear and wrongly assumed that the English suckers would fall for the same bulls*it.
Even now, there is very little positive stories coming out about why we should remain, if given another vote.
Just the same old stuff about the end of the world should we once again vote to leave.
You would think that after 40+ years of membership they could find a few positive stories to write about.
You know, some specifics.
It's great to be a member of the EU because …..
It's a tough gig because many who were totally disinterested before have woken up.
Are you one of the "liars" that Jerryattrick refers to Waldo? I think I'm one of them. I'd like to know when I've lied so I can apologise and correct myself.
Didn't you tell him that you know the answer to everything?He is a barrister and didn't give any indication of his views but simply remarked that you should never ask a question you don't know the answer to.
For forty plus years successive UK governments have blamed the EU for their own faults. A large number of EU regulations were proposed by the UK yet somehow leavers manage to absolve our government of any responsibility.
Accepted Jerry, thanks.Apologies for lack of clarity. I thought it was clear that I was referring to politicians and the media. Both sides have told either lies, or half truths through soundbites. There are more actual facts on this thread than in most of the parliamentary discussions.
Both sides originally decided on propaganda instead of facts and debate and therefore the referendum should never have happened or been delayed until voters had been given more information.
But the referendum did go ahead (I was for remain) and everyone should have moved forward together to make the most of it. Instead we have just had the same misinformation and intransigence on both sides.
Bloomin' cheek. We created EFTA, well Gen 1 (and then left it high and dry, for the more comely and all-encompassing, some might say suffocating, bosom of the EEC!).The best comment came from a Norwegian politician who was asked what they thought of the U.K. joining the EFTA along with Norway. She said she wouldn't want us to join and mess things up for them like we have for ourselves.
Just in case the last bit wasn't a whoosh here's a random ten...
1/. It supports millions of UK jobs and has attracted huge global investment from countries like Japan who set up factories in the UK to export into the EU.
2/. UK based companies can trade simply with every EU country with just one agreement.
3/. We can all travel freely to all EU countries.
4/. It has improved workers rights.
5/. It has lowered mobile phone bills
6/. The NHS and our service sector benefit from the easy recruitment of an EU pool of workers.
7/. It has helped peace between EU countries.
8/. It has EU wide counter terrorism agreements.
9/. It has more clout to deal with or stand up to Russia, China and other BRICK economy countries
10/. We are better off working on the inside to improve it rather than looking on powerless from the outside.
"supports millions of UK jobs"Just in case the last bit wasn't a whoosh here's a random ten...
1/. It supports millions of UK jobs and has attracted huge global investment from countries like Japan who set up factories in the UK to export into the EU.
Probably true but never quantified and probably overstated.2/. UK based companies can trade simply with every EU country with just one agreement.
Just like we could before the EEC/EU. Visa-free travel in the 1970's to most of Europe was little more than a wave of a passport3/. We can all travel freely to all EU countries.
The UK led on workers righte - before the EU. Things like equal pay. No more children up chimneys etc.4/. It has improved workers rights.
Arguable.5/. It has lowered mobile phone bills.
Except that Commonwealth staff out number EU staff by at least 4 to 1.6/. The NHS and our service sector benefit from the easy recruitment of an EU pool of workers.
Maybe a bit ...... trailing a long way behind NATO.7/. It has helped peace between EU countries.
Most security arrangements started outside the EU - e.g the Prem Convention.8/. It has EU wide counter terrorism agreements.
ANY co-ordinated group can "stand up to ..." e.g. NATO.9/. It has more clout to deal with or stand up to Russia, China and other BRICK economy countries
Tried that. Doesn't work.10/. We are better off working on the inside to improve it rather than looking on powerless from the outside.
As long as we leave, it'll all be much better even though we could be damaged financially for some time to come but it won't be short term for sure."supports millions of UK jobs"
The author of the "3 million jobs" quote said that he never said "depend" but "linked".
But leaving the EU doesn't mean that either trade will disappear or jobs will go.
Probably true but never quantified and probably overstated.
a) Comes at a price of thousands of EU laws about internal, domestic stuff, nothing to do with cross border trade
AND
uncontrolled migration with pressure on house prices, services and transport
b) WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"
Just like we could before the EEC/EU. Visa-free travel in the 1970's to most of Europe was little more than a wave of a passport
The UK led on workers righte - before the EU. Things like equal pay. No more children up chimneys etc.
(Maybe other countries saw "improvements")
Arguable.
Except that Commonwealth staff out number EU staff by at least 4 to 1.
And native English speakers will be both "easier" to recruit and unlikley to mis-translate a medical instruction.
Maybe a bit ...... trailing a long way behind NATO.
AN ..... far more important has been easy contact with ordinary foreigners, supported far more by cheaper transport than the EU.
Most security arrangements started outside the EU - e.g the Prem Convention.
The EU has a habit of "adopting" such things into itsempireorbit.
ANY co-ordinated group can "stand up to ..." e.g. NATO.
But the EU goes beyond simple co-operation into an authoritarian overlord.
Tried that. Doesn't work.
Independent action by outside countires that "works" is far more likely to shift EU opinion.
WTO maybe familiar to some but not all by far - many enterprises only do business with the EU; so, they won't be familiar with WTO and even those that are might wince at the tariffs when we have to negotiate a hundred trade deals. And those not familiar with the workings of UK customs will not be aware of the paperwork involved, ie cost of admin regardless of trusted trader status - that is not conferred overnight and it will lead to more customs officials being engaged at a cost to someone.WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"
"supports millions of UK jobs"
The author of the "3 million jobs" quote said that he never said "depend" but "linked".
But leaving the EU doesn't mean that either trade will disappear or jobs will go.
Probably true but never quantified and probably overstated.
a) Comes at a price of thousands of EU laws about internal, domestic stuff, nothing to do with cross border trade
AND
uncontrolled migration with pressure on house prices, services and transport
b) WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"
Just like we could before the EEC/EU. Visa-free travel in the 1970's to most of Europe was little more than a wave of a passport
The UK led on workers righte - before the EU. Things like equal pay. No more children up chimneys etc.
(Maybe other countries saw "improvements")
Arguable.
Except that Commonwealth staff out number EU staff by at least 4 to 1.
And native English speakers will be both "easier" to recruit and unlikley to mis-translate a medical instruction.
Maybe a bit ...... trailing a long way behind NATO.
AN ..... far more important has been easy contact with ordinary foreigners, supported far more by cheaper transport than the EU.
Most security arrangements started outside the EU - e.g the Prem Convention.
The EU has a habit of "adopting" such things into itsempireorbit.
ANY co-ordinated group can "stand up to ..." e.g. NATO.
But the EU goes beyond simple co-operation into an authoritarian overlord.
Tried that. Doesn't work.
Independent action by outside countires that "works" is far more likely to shift EU opinion.
He doesn't care; he's so traumatised by the distance between street lamps that escaping from the EU is all to him and sod everyone else.So your arguments seem to point to you preferring a hard Brexit? You presumably would also argue that our kids struggling to raise their own families will all be better off if that happens?