EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’... | Page 156 | Vital Football

EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

Had Mrs Thatcher put a football ban to the vote in the days after on of the big battles on the terraces of the 1980s there is a fair chance that football could have had great trouble getting anywhere near 50% support of the country.
 
The problem back in 2016 Wayne was that they thought that they did know the answer to it.
They had just scared the Scots s*itless with a barrage of Project Fear and wrongly assumed that the English suckers would fall for the same bulls*it.
Even now, there is very little positive stories coming out about why we should remain, if given another vote.
Just the same old stuff about the end of the world should we once again vote to leave.
You would think that after 40+ years of membership they could find a few positive stories to write about.
You know, some specifics.
It's great to be a member of the EU because …..

It's a tough gig because many who were totally disinterested before have woken up.

Idiot - this is why referendums shouldn't happen
 
The problem back in 2016 Wayne was that they thought that they did know the answer to it.
They had just scared the Scots s*itless with a barrage of Project Fear and wrongly assumed that the English suckers would fall for the same bulls*it.
Even now, there is very little positive stories coming out about why we should remain, if given another vote.
Just the same old stuff about the end of the world should we once again vote to leave.
You would think that after 40+ years of membership they could find a few positive stories to write about.
You know, some specifics.
It's great to be a member of the EU because...

Just in case the last bit wasn't a whoosh here's a random ten...

1/. It supports millions of UK jobs and has attracted huge global investment from countries like Japan who set up factories in the UK to export into the EU.
2/. UK based companies can trade simply with every EU country with just one agreement.
3/. We can all travel freely to all EU countries.
4/. It has improved workers rights.
5/. It has lowered mobile phone bills
6/. The NHS and our service sector benefit from the easy recruitment of an EU pool of workers.
7/. It has helped peace between EU countries.
8/. It has EU wide counter terrorism agreements.
9/. It has more clout to deal with or stand up to Russia, China and other BRICK economy countries
10/. We are better off working on the inside to improve it rather than looking on powerless from the outside.
 
The problem back in 2016 Wayne was that they thought that they did know the answer to it.
They had just scared the Scots s*itless with a barrage of Project Fear and wrongly assumed that the English suckers would fall for the same bulls*it.
Even now, there is very little positive stories coming out about why we should remain, if given another vote.
Just the same old stuff about the end of the world should we once again vote to leave.
You would think that after 40+ years of membership they could find a few positive stories to write about.
You know, some specifics.
It's great to be a member of the EU because …..

It's a tough gig because many who were totally disinterested before have woken up.

That may be shotshy but equally forty odd years of relentless evangelical politicking from the full breakfast Brexiteers have failed to provide a blueprint, or even a coherent set of demands. It's a virtual debate on both sides.

Talking of waking up it also appears that a significant overall majority in NI, including 20% of DUP voters, favour remaining in a customs union. They favour trade, jobs and the economy over anything and everything. Priti Patel and co meanwhile think that if it means harder times in NI then they should suck it up.

Too many simple solutions offered, which disappeared in the first breeze, now we can't cobble a complex one together. I've ceased even viewing it as two sides and am struggling to imagine any outcome, which pleases even 50% and might work. Ho hum.
 
Are you one of the "liars" that Jerryattrick refers to Waldo? I think I'm one of them. I'd like to know when I've lied so I can apologise and correct myself.

Apologies for lack of clarity. I thought it was clear that I was referring to politicians and the media. Both sides have told either lies, or half truths through soundbites. There are more actual facts on this thread than in most of the parliamentary discussions.

Both sides originally decided on propaganda instead of facts and debate and therefore the referendum should never have happened or been delayed until voters had been given more information.
But the referendum did go ahead (I was for remain) and everyone should have moved forward together to make the most of it. Instead we have just had the same misinformation and intransigence on both sides.
 
For forty plus years successive UK governments have blamed the EU for their own faults. A large number of EU regulations were proposed by the UK yet somehow leavers manage to absolve our government of any responsibility.
 
For forty plus years successive UK governments have blamed the EU for their own faults. A large number of EU regulations were proposed by the UK yet somehow leavers manage to absolve our government of any responsibility.

Exactly. Heard Blair the other day explaining that many laws including the latest expansion were pushed for by the UK.
 
Apologies for lack of clarity. I thought it was clear that I was referring to politicians and the media. Both sides have told either lies, or half truths through soundbites. There are more actual facts on this thread than in most of the parliamentary discussions.

Both sides originally decided on propaganda instead of facts and debate and therefore the referendum should never have happened or been delayed until voters had been given more information.
But the referendum did go ahead (I was for remain) and everyone should have moved forward together to make the most of it. Instead we have just had the same misinformation and intransigence on both sides.
Accepted Jerry, thanks.
 
The best comment came from a Norwegian politician who was asked what they thought of the U.K. joining the EFTA along with Norway. She said she wouldn't want us to join and mess things up for them like we have for ourselves.
 
The best comment came from a Norwegian politician who was asked what they thought of the U.K. joining the EFTA along with Norway. She said she wouldn't want us to join and mess things up for them like we have for ourselves.
Bloomin' cheek. We created EFTA, well Gen 1 (and then left it high and dry, for the more comely and all-encompassing, some might say suffocating, bosom of the EEC!).
 
Just in case the last bit wasn't a whoosh here's a random ten...

1/. It supports millions of UK jobs and has attracted huge global investment from countries like Japan who set up factories in the UK to export into the EU.
2/. UK based companies can trade simply with every EU country with just one agreement.
3/. We can all travel freely to all EU countries.
4/. It has improved workers rights.
5/. It has lowered mobile phone bills
6/. The NHS and our service sector benefit from the easy recruitment of an EU pool of workers.
7/. It has helped peace between EU countries.
8/. It has EU wide counter terrorism agreements.
9/. It has more clout to deal with or stand up to Russia, China and other BRICK economy countries
10/. We are better off working on the inside to improve it rather than looking on powerless from the outside.

1. Very important -possibly end of argument for now
2. But include complication when trying to work with others
3. Does not need an EU
4. Unemployment costs
5. Has raised the price of dairy (I know, phones, milk, who cares?)
6. Could be accomplished by bespoke deals
7. Doubtful if ever, wasting asset if true, looking truly awful now
8. Does not need an EU
9. Yes but relatively declining and only true if blocs are the future -open question
10. Carlton Browne of the FO speaking. We tried, but for every gain, bigger loses.


The EU is not evil, although it's getting harder to say that as the difficulties of leaving become clearer. There are lots of good things associated with it, but you do not need It to deliver most of those good things, and it is starting to look like a mid-20th century answer to late 20th century problems.
 
" There are lots of good things associated with it, but you do not need It to deliver most of those good things, and it is starting to look like a mid-20th century answer to late 20th century problems. "

Nothing about Brexit as presently advertised looks anything remotely to do with the current century. It's leaders belong in a costume drama and its attitudes in fiction. This is all about who we want to be surely and little to do with grand alliances, long history, or facts.
 
Just in case the last bit wasn't a whoosh here's a random ten...

1/. It supports millions of UK jobs and has attracted huge global investment from countries like Japan who set up factories in the UK to export into the EU.
"supports millions of UK jobs"
The author of the "3 million jobs" quote said that he never said "depend" but "linked".
But leaving the EU doesn't mean that either trade will disappear or jobs will go.

2/. UK based companies can trade simply with every EU country with just one agreement.
Probably true but never quantified and probably overstated.
a) Comes at a price of thousands of EU laws about internal, domestic stuff, nothing to do with cross border trade
AND
uncontrolled migration with pressure on house prices, services and transport
b) WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"

3/. We can all travel freely to all EU countries.
Just like we could before the EEC/EU. Visa-free travel in the 1970's to most of Europe was little more than a wave of a passport

4/. It has improved workers rights.
The UK led on workers righte - before the EU. Things like equal pay. No more children up chimneys etc.
(Maybe other countries saw "improvements")

5/. It has lowered mobile phone bills.
Arguable.

6/. The NHS and our service sector benefit from the easy recruitment of an EU pool of workers.
Except that Commonwealth staff out number EU staff by at least 4 to 1.
And native English speakers will be both "easier" to recruit and unlikley to mis-translate a medical instruction.

7/. It has helped peace between EU countries.
Maybe a bit ...... trailing a long way behind NATO.
AN ..... far more important has been easy contact with ordinary foreigners, supported far more by cheaper transport than the EU.

8/. It has EU wide counter terrorism agreements.
Most security arrangements started outside the EU - e.g the Prem Convention.
The EU has a habit of "adopting" such things into its empire orbit.

9/. It has more clout to deal with or stand up to Russia, China and other BRICK economy countries
ANY co-ordinated group can "stand up to ..." e.g. NATO.
But the EU goes beyond simple co-operation into an authoritarian overlord.

10/. We are better off working on the inside to improve it rather than looking on powerless from the outside.
Tried that. Doesn't work.
Independent action by outside countires that "works" is far more likely to shift EU opinion.
 
"supports millions of UK jobs"
The author of the "3 million jobs" quote said that he never said "depend" but "linked".
But leaving the EU doesn't mean that either trade will disappear or jobs will go.


Probably true but never quantified and probably overstated.
a) Comes at a price of thousands of EU laws about internal, domestic stuff, nothing to do with cross border trade
AND
uncontrolled migration with pressure on house prices, services and transport
b) WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"


Just like we could before the EEC/EU. Visa-free travel in the 1970's to most of Europe was little more than a wave of a passport


The UK led on workers righte - before the EU. Things like equal pay. No more children up chimneys etc.
(Maybe other countries saw "improvements")


Arguable.


Except that Commonwealth staff out number EU staff by at least 4 to 1.
And native English speakers will be both "easier" to recruit and unlikley to mis-translate a medical instruction.


Maybe a bit ...... trailing a long way behind NATO.
AN ..... far more important has been easy contact with ordinary foreigners, supported far more by cheaper transport than the EU.


Most security arrangements started outside the EU - e.g the Prem Convention.
The EU has a habit of "adopting" such things into its empire orbit.


ANY co-ordinated group can "stand up to ..." e.g. NATO.
But the EU goes beyond simple co-operation into an authoritarian overlord.


Tried that. Doesn't work.
Independent action by outside countires that "works" is far more likely to shift EU opinion.
As long as we leave, it'll all be much better even though we could be damaged financially for some time to come but it won't be short term for sure.

I wonder if, unlike all your other Brexiteer friends, you could explain where all these new opportunities will come from that the UK will enjoy post-Brexit and please, please, PLEASE don't say we'll do much better without EU shackles unless you can explain how that works too.

I challenged GBN to list 20 EU 'rules' that impacted negatively on his daily life and give £1 to charity for each genuine item - are you up for that? I even gave him red passports. He couldn't list anything tangible.

And I'll double it if, for £1 an item, you can give me 20 benefits for leaving the EU, eg new tangible trade deals not semantics like bringing back control, but I won't allow freedom of street lamp spacing
 
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WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"
WTO maybe familiar to some but not all by far - many enterprises only do business with the EU; so, they won't be familiar with WTO and even those that are might wince at the tariffs when we have to negotiate a hundred trade deals. And those not familiar with the workings of UK customs will not be aware of the paperwork involved, ie cost of admin regardless of trusted trader status - that is not conferred overnight and it will lead to more customs officials being engaged at a cost to someone.
 
"supports millions of UK jobs"
The author of the "3 million jobs" quote said that he never said "depend" but "linked".
But leaving the EU doesn't mean that either trade will disappear or jobs will go.


Probably true but never quantified and probably overstated.
a) Comes at a price of thousands of EU laws about internal, domestic stuff, nothing to do with cross border trade
AND
uncontrolled migration with pressure on house prices, services and transport
b) WTO is very familiar to business and HM Customs. Over 95% of shipments are pre-registered by trusted traders - almost "frictionless"


Just like we could before the EEC/EU. Visa-free travel in the 1970's to most of Europe was little more than a wave of a passport


The UK led on workers righte - before the EU. Things like equal pay. No more children up chimneys etc.
(Maybe other countries saw "improvements")


Arguable.


Except that Commonwealth staff out number EU staff by at least 4 to 1.
And native English speakers will be both "easier" to recruit and unlikley to mis-translate a medical instruction.


Maybe a bit ...... trailing a long way behind NATO.
AN ..... far more important has been easy contact with ordinary foreigners, supported far more by cheaper transport than the EU.


Most security arrangements started outside the EU - e.g the Prem Convention.
The EU has a habit of "adopting" such things into its empire orbit.


ANY co-ordinated group can "stand up to ..." e.g. NATO.
But the EU goes beyond simple co-operation into an authoritarian overlord.


Tried that. Doesn't work.
Independent action by outside countires that "works" is far more likely to shift EU opinion.

So your arguments seem to point to you preferring a hard Brexit? You presumably would also argue that our kids struggling to raise their own families will all be better off if that happens?
 
So your arguments seem to point to you preferring a hard Brexit? You presumably would also argue that our kids struggling to raise their own families will all be better off if that happens?
He doesn't care; he's so traumatised by the distance between street lamps that escaping from the EU is all to him and sod everyone else.