Bit of Brexit info required. | Page 94 | Vital Football

Bit of Brexit info required.

Well the cheating might be easier to prove!
That would make the result invalid.

However, the argument should not be to rerun the referendum or question its validity. We are where we are. What we need to do now is validate the people's decision with a new vote on the negotiated deals vs remaining. All perfectly democratic. Indeed, maybe the only democratic way forward.
 
in_the_top_one said:
Well the cheating might be easier to prove!
That would make the result invalid.

However, the argument should not be to rerun the referendum or question its validity. We are where we are. What we need to do now is validate the people's decision with a new vote on the negotiated deals vs remaining. All perfectly democratic. Indeed, maybe the only democratic way forward.
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Luckily no one is asking for a 're run. We want a.say on the deal and as u point out it is the only TINA in town
 
in_the_top_one said:
Well the cheating might be easier to prove!
That would make the result invalid.

However, the argument should not be to rerun the referendum or question its validity. We are where we are. What we need to do now is validate the people's decision with a new vote on the negotiated deals vs remaining. All perfectly democratic. Indeed, maybe the only democratic way forward.
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Disagree. That wouldn’t be implementing the vote so it’s Mays deal v no deal
 
toms said:
And after the transition period what happens regarding our dealings with the ecj and free movement because that is key to brexiteers
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Honestly I don’t know.
The discussion I had was all about the Withdrawal Act, and getting to a point that Trade Deals and future relationships could be negotiated.

It seems as though the reality of what a disorderly exit would do, not only to our economy, but probably many other countries around the world eventually focused minds.
I think deep down there is concern that the world is facing another economic downturn, and all this uncertainty was not helpful.

The truth is, all the issues around the WTO rules and borders is correct.
Something had to change, the proposed transition does that.

Personally I think any Trade Deal will be many years in the making and will be significantly different to anything we are considering now.
I also think there will be a major evolution of the EU along the way.

We are seeing those changes happening now with the likes of Merkel moving on. And of course Juncker and co will be gone soon.

And of course we have to negotiate agreements with other countries at the same time.

I am hopeful that common sense has now broken out, and rather than being ideologically driven, this thing can be negotiated properly and professionally.

It will be sad if this progress stops this post getting to 100 pages.....
 
Feco, lots of common sense in that post, this whole business is full of "don't knows" and will not be helped by a possible downturn in the worlds economy. And I feel pretty sure that will happen, not helped by President Trump and his antics.
It looks as though your 100 pages is within reach.
 
in_the_top_one said:
There is plenty of evidence of how much campaign funding affects outcomes. Guess what - that's why winning campaigns are expensive. And that's why people bother to make political donations. The more campaign donations you get, the more likely you are to win. Do I really need to write that down?


I can't prove that the extra money swayed 600,000 people (less than 1.8% of the voters!) during the EU referendum any more than you can prove that it did. It is well within the realms of possibility. The answer is we just don't know. The will of the people has not been clearly determined. That's the problem with cheating, isn't it? Would Anderlecht have won anyway? Or Argentina? Or Ben Johnson? Or Lance Armstrong?
Prove to me that Lance Armstrong's drug taking affected the race? Sounds a bit silly, doesn't it?
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17.4 million people voted to leave. One bloke who I had never heard of at the time of the election may have done something illegal and you think that invalidated the vote? Why are you so convinced anything he did swayed the vote when our government spent 8 million and persuaded no one? The EU spent billions for 40 years and only persuaded people to leave. Did they also cost in Obama, the Clintons, the EU leaders and various leaders of countries who spouted during the election that we shouldn't leave?
 
Lienking said:
17.4 million people voted to leave. One bloke who I had never heard of at the time of the election may have done something illegal and you think that invalidated the vote? Why are you so convinced anything he did swayed the vote when our government spent 8 million and persuaded no one? The EU spent billions for 40 years and only persuaded people to leave. Did they also cost in Obama, the Clintons, the EU leaders and various leaders of countries who spouted during the election that we shouldn't leave?
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Yawn. We have heard this bleating before. It's just the law, Lienking, and the law is important to protect our democracy.

In 1975, the Court of Appeal held that: “[if an] election was conducted so badly that it was not substantially in accordance with the law as to elections, the election is vitiated [its legality is impaired], irrespective of whether the result was affected or not.”
 
Old Red Fart said:
Feco, lots of common sense in that post, this whole business is full of "don't knows" and will not be helped by a possible downturn in the worlds economy. And I feel pretty sure that will happen, not helped by President Trump and his antics.
It looks as though your 100 pages is within reach.
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ORF, I was much happier with what I heard over the weekend, it did seem like things where moving the right way at last. That certainly wasn’t the case, publically at least, a month ago.

Interesting that the BBC were quietly reporting last night, pretty much what I was told over the weekend. I think what they didn’t report was telling, they have clearly been briefed in advance on what is happening.

I have no issues with respecting the result of the referendum, but absolutely was against anything that would paralyze and destroy our economy.
That’s what the likes of Boris and JRM where proposing.

I think we will leave on the 29th March now, but not much will change. A few little important things, but nothing that affects day to day life dramatically.

The trade deal negotiations will I feel lead to many changes, both for the UK and EU, and hopefully these will be for the better.
I have no idea what that will be, maybe the relationships between member countries evolves and we all work together in a different manner.

I think both the EU and the UK need to take a deep breath and look around a little. The events over the pond yesterday will hardly help stabilize the world economy.
A Trump administration on its own was bad, I can’t imagine what a divided Trump administration is going to be like.
 
in_the_top_one said:
Yawn. We have heard this bleating before. It's just the law, Lienking, and the law is important to protect our democracy.

In 1975, the Court of Appeal held that: “[if an] election was conducted so badly that it was not substantially in accordance with the law as to elections, the election is vitiated [its legality is impaired], irrespective of whether the result was affected or not.”
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I have seen nothing thus far that has been proven which breaches this test. You are desperate in your attempt to stop the government implementing the vote.
 
What is being reported and heard is pretty much the conclusion of a discussion I have with a sitting MP's sibling not long after the initial vote.
 
Feco said:
ORF, I was much happier with what I heard over the weekend, it did seem like things where moving the right way at last. That certainly wasn’t the case, publically at least, a month ago.

Interesting that the BBC were quietly reporting last night, pretty much what I was told over the weekend. I think what they didn’t report was telling, they have clearly been briefed in advance on what is happening.

I have no issues with respecting the result of the referendum, but absolutely was against anything that would paralyze and destroy our economy.
That’s what the likes of Boris and JRM where proposing.

I think we will leave on the 29th March now, but not much will change. A few little important things, but nothing that affects day to day life dramatically.

The trade deal negotiations will I feel lead to many changes, both for the UK and EU, and hopefully these will be for the better.
I have no idea what that will be, maybe the relationships between member countries evolves and we all work together in a different manner.

I think both the EU and the UK need to take a deep breath and look around a little. The events over the pond yesterday will hardly help stabilize the world economy.
A Trump administration on its own was bad, I can’t imagine what a divided Trump administration is going to be like.
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Itto is still trying to overturn the result. It seems you at l ast have accepted a deal is possible and implementable
 
toms said:
Itto is still trying to overturn the result. It seems you at l ast have accepted a deal is possible and implementable
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After the referendum, I only wanted an outcome that didn’t disrupte Trade, movement within the EU and wouldn’t destroy our economy.
Seems that is the likely outcome of the Withdrawal part of the process now.

Now all we need is for you to accept that the fairytale version of the Brexit Withdrawal put forward by Boris, Farage JRM and Davis, (and you supported fully), was technically and legally impossible to achieve without destroying the UK economy and we are all winners.
 
Feco said:
After the referendum, I only wanted an outcome that didn’t disrupte Trade, movement within the EU and wouldn’t destroy our economy.
Seems that is the likely outcome of the Withdrawal part of the process now.

Now all we need is for you to accept that the fairytale version of the Brexit Withdrawal put forward by Boris, Farage JRM and Davis, (and you supported fully), was technically and legally impossible to achieve without destroying the UK economy and we are all winners.
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I do not accept that.
 
toms said:
I have seen nothing thus far that has been proven which breaches this test. You are desperate in your attempt to stop the government implementing the vote.
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No. We have to wait for the conclusion of the investigation - shame it has been delayed due to "political sensitivities"...

Anyway, you're missing the point.
Legally, it doesn't even matter whether the vote was legitimate or not. It was not binding. It was an opinion poll. It was skewed by cheating and blatant lies offering an impossible outcome, but it was an opinion poll nonetheless.

The government was under no legal obligation to enact Article 50, nor was parliament obliged to vote it through. They did that on their own. It is a shame that they felt morally obliged to do it at all, let alone on the basis of that increasingly discredited vote. But whether or not it was legal doesn't matter. Sadly.

The point I return to, is that now we know what happened, and we know of further details of how the people were manipulated against electoral law, and we know the outcome of the government's best effort in negotiations, it seems reasonable to say, "are you sure?". Especially since we are being told to accept a blind brexit where the trade arrangement with europe will not be concluded decisively.
 
toms said:
Itto is still trying to overturn the result. It seems you at l ast have accepted a deal is possible and implementable
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I am.
Through democratic means.
That's what democracy is.

BTW, I never said Brino was impossible. I said it was the most likely outcome but would still be damaging.

Taken to the limit, we can have a 'brexit' where everything stays EXACTLY the same but we don't get to vote for MEPs and our PM wouldn't have a seat at the council table.
i.e. we can choose to pay our subs to the club, we can choose to have regulatory alignment, we can choose to sign up to EU laws and directives, we can choose to have customs arrangement, we can choose to have free movement. That might even be the least damaging outcome but we would be ceding control of our laws, borders, and money in a way which doesn't happen right now. But because we don't have a seat at the table, we wouldn't be members. Sound good? Not to me! You wouldn't notice much change to your life though. Not like No Deal - which would affect everyone negatively.
 
Feco said:
Just for clarity which bit don’t you accept?

The bit about the likely outcome of the Withdrawal process, or that Boris, Farage, Davis and JRM got it badly wrong?
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That the uk will fall under a bus permanently
 
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